# Did waterboarding help kill Bin Laden? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487 "2011-05-02T16:54:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/261 "2011-05-13T17:04:13Z")
The Gestapo could and would simply arrest every person mentioned by the individual being tortured. These people would then be tortured in turn, and the Gestapo would round up every person mentioned by them. Lather, rinse, repeat. This was certainly effective in making the population fearful and rendering it easier to control. It also reduced the absolute number of people involved in activities adverse to the regime. The fact that the actual “subversives” removed, jailed and/or killed was a fraction of the total number of people thus treated was considered to be irrelevant. In this sense, the Gestapo was indeed “effective”. To compare this scenario to the circumstances applying in regular police work such as the LAPD or the FBI, or even in the case of the IRA, is totally disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/262 "2011-05-13T17:54:13Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I cited that the consensus of professional interrogators believe torture provides unreliable information. You disagree, but will no provide cites to the contrary. This is patently ridiculous. You have not produced a cite that shows there is a consensus of professional interrogators that “torture” provides unreliable information. You have failed to support that claim. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/263 "2011-05-13T18:05:21Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > This is patently ridiculous. You have not produced a cite that shows there is a consensus of professional interrogators that “torture” provides unreliable information. You have failed to support that claim. Second verse, same as the first! What would you accept as evidence of that fact? Because I and others here have shown that every major intelligence agency in this country thinks it doesn’t provide reliable information. What exactly, other than a poll of ever interrogator on Earth would you accept to change your blindly ideological faith based ignorance? It would help if you actually had any cites to refute what we claim. But I guess you don’t need to when you can dismiss uncomfortable facts. Protip: When the facts say your ignorant opinion is wrong, change your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/264 "2011-05-13T18:11:04Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Second verse, same as the first! > > What would you accept as evidence of that fact? Because I and others here have shown that every major intelligence agency in this country thinks it doesn’t provide reliable information. What exactly, other than a poll of ever interrogator on Earth would you accept to change your blindly ideological faith based ignorance? > > It would help if you actually had any cites to refute what we claim. But I guess you don’t need to when you can dismiss uncomfortable facts. > > Protip: When the facts say your ignorant opinion is wrong, change your opinion. Nothing will work. he needs a vote by the interrogators. It is not enough to show the manuals says it does not work. It is insufficient to show those involved in interrogation say it does not work. I am not aware that they ever had a vote among interrogators. Therefore you can not meet the ROVER thresh hold. ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/265 "2011-05-13T18:28:09Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Nothing will work. he needs a vote by the interrogators. It is not enough to show the manuals says it does not work. It is insufficient to show those involved in interrogation say it does not work. > I am not aware that they ever had a vote among interrogators. Therefore you can not meet the ROVER thresh hold. Even if there was, that would just be “mindlessly repeating stuff you read in your echo chamber”. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/266 "2011-05-13T20:39:24Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Second verse, same as the first! > > What would you accept as evidence of that fact? Because I and others here have shown that every major intelligence agency in this country thinks it doesn’t provide reliable information. What exactly, other than a poll of ever interrogator on Earth would you accept to change your blindly ideological faith based ignorance? > > It would help if you actually had any cites to refute what we claim. But I guess you don’t need to when you can dismiss uncomfortable facts. > > Protip: When the facts say your ignorant opinion is wrong, change your opinion. Here’s a protip for you: When you can’t support a claim, don’t make the claim. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/267 "2011-05-13T20:40:46Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Here’s a protip for you: When you can’t support a claim, don’t make the claim. I did support it. You ignored my cite, the cites of others and provided none of your own. Why are in you in a forum called Great Debates if you have no intention of debating? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/268 "2011-05-13T22:07:33Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I did support it. You ignored my cite, the cites of others and provided none of your own. > > Why are in you in a forum called Great Debates if you have no intention of debating? Why are you? You keep repeating the same things over and over and not responding to my responses. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/269 "2011-05-13T22:26:51Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Why are you? You keep repeating the same things over and over and not responding to my responses. I am responding to you. I claimed that a consensus of professional interrogators feel that torture provides unreliable information. I, and others provided cites to support that. You have consistently pretended those cites don’t exist. You are not willing to accept that it is even possible that you are wrong, and no information that could possibly exist could meet your standards. Please don’t misrepresent my role in this. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/270 "2011-05-13T22:59:33Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Here’s a protip for you: When you can’t support a claim, don’t make the claim. We have provided a veritable landslide of cites that says torture is a lousy way of obtaining reliable intelligence. You want a consensus? There is your consensus. If you say we are cherry picking fine…provide cites of your own showing professional interrogators saying it is a great way of obtaining actionable intelligence. So far you have utterly failed to provide a single counter and frankly you’d need more than one to undo the mountain of evidence provided to show you are wrong. It is stunning how someone faced with the overwhelming evidence here would argue it is still an open question. It is not an open question. Not close. If it were I am sure you would be swinging your own cites around here with glee. You’ve got nothing and you know you have nothing. You have been called out by a Mod for this. Perhaps your psyche requires that you be right no matter what but if so you are the only one who could think so after reading this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/271 "2011-05-13T23:15:15Z")
(Bolding mine below) > [@CannyDan](#): > > The Gestapo could and would simply arrest every person mentioned by the individual being tortured. These people would then be tortured in turn, and the Gestapo would round up every person mentioned by them. Lather, rinse, repeat. This was certainly effective in making the population fearful and rendering it easier to control. **It also reduced the absolute number of people involved in activities adverse to the regime.** I understand what you are getting at and this post is not meant in an adversarial way. That said I wonder if those kinds of tactics, while certainly helping to control the population via fear, manage to actually decrease those _actively_ opposed to the regime (e.g. terrorists/freedom fighters/resistance…depends where you stand on what you want to call them). To be sure, if for no other reason than the law of averages, they will stumble upon resistance fighters and manage to take them out of action. On the flip side though I would think those kinds of tactics tend to generate resistance fighters. I have no idea how it all plays out on balance but I think it needs to be considered that such tactics can create people opposed to you as well as get rid of them. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/272 "2011-05-14T00:39:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Really, I remember hearing that the Gestapo was very good at getting captured members of the French, Dutch, Norwegian and other resistance groups to talk. > > Where’ve you heard otherwise? High school history class ? > [@](#): > > Certainly it seems to me that he Gestapo was far more successful at getting members of the Maquis, SOE, and the OSS to spill their guts than the British were ever at getting captured members of the IRA to give up their fellow boyos which wouldn’t make much sense if “normal interrogation techniques” were more effective. That certainly would explain why the various French maquis never had underground railroads to get Jews and downed British pilots out of France nor blew up a whole lot of infrastructure up to the lead-up to D-Day, why no maquisard was left to join the Free French forces _en masse_ after it, why Netherlander resistance collapsed nigh-instantly and wasn’t there to capture entire towns once Market Garden was a go, why Russian and Polish partisans never got to turn the Russian front into a quagmire by disrupting supplies all over the place, why Stalingrad was a crushing German victory, why Warsaw was a beacon of pro-German sentiment and why no attempt was ever made on the Führer’s life. Gestapo in, dissidents out. Never a miscommunication. You can’t explain that ! … … I’m being informed all of that was, in fact, the exact opposite of what happened. Carry on. > [@](#): > > This is a rather peculiar comment. I don’t think the KGB actually did any torturing in that war. I believe it was done by the GRU who quite jealously guarded their territory. > > Such a comment doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in your knowledge of the subject or your competence to judge the effectiveness of torture. Because the GRU’s methods were extremely different, of course. Of course. > [@](#): > > I don’t know how successful they were in getting members of the Mujahideen to roll over but I’ve never heard anyone dispute the fact that the KGB did a good job at getting captured spies and dissidents to give up their fellow spies and collaborators. Maybe you never asked ? > [@](#): > > When comparing the effectiveness of Stasi techniques to that of “normal interrogation techniques” the question is how effective were they at getting captured dissidents to rat out other dissidents. > I’ve never heard anyone suggest they weren’t and most people seem to agree that they were clearly quite effective. Well, 4 million East Germans crossed over into West Germany over the period the emigration ban was in place, which represents 1/4th - 1/5th of the population. EFFICIENCY ! > [@](#): > > Huh? No, intelligence reports from the ISI, and the Egyptian and Jordanian equivalents don’t go into details about about exactly what is done to suspects who are “interviewed” but when an ISI report mentions intelligence gleaned from a “captured Al Quaeda operative” everyone knows what happened to the operative and what was done to make him talk. Which is why the ISI is presumably not considered a good source of data by Western agencies. I don’t honestly know, not being part of the intelligence community. Do you have any indication they are ? > [@](#): > > Considering the fact that I made it clear in my post that I found torture immoral that’s an extremely foolish comment. Foolish ? Why ? You’re advocating torture on the grounds that “it’s immoral, but it works”. Implicit to such defense is the notion that “therefore we should keep on doing it”, i.e. taking behavioural cues from the Gestapo. > [@](#): > > Anyway, like I said I’ve met people who were on the wrong side of being tortured and all freely admitted that they spilled their guts and that it was extremely effective. But all my torturer friends say it wasn’t ! > [@](#): > > Now perhaps you think that Chicago PD does a better job at getting captured members of the Vice Lords(or whatever the dominant gang in Chicago is) to roll over on their fellow gang members than the Gestapo did at getting captured members of the Maquis to give up fellow Maquis members, but I doubt it. Well, I don’t know how the Chicago PD is doing but since the Gestapo has a notably _schlecht_ record at eliminating dissidents they can’t be doing much worse. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/273 "2011-05-14T00:47:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > (Bolding mine below) > I understand what you are getting at and this post is not meant in an adversarial way. > > That said I wonder if those kinds of tactics, while certainly helping to control the population via fear, manage to actually decrease those _actively_ opposed to the regime (e.g. terrorists/freedom fighters/resistance…depends where you stand on what you want to call them). > > To be sure, if for no other reason than the law of averages, they will stumble upon resistance fighters and manage to take them out of action. On the flip side though I would think those kinds of tactics tend to generate resistance fighters. > > I have no idea how it all plays out on balance but I think it needs to be considered that such tactics can create people opposed to you as well as get rid of them. I do not disagree. I believe these tactics actually strengthened the resolve of the Resistance. I was only commenting on the fact that these were tactics of intimidation, not intelligence gathering. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/274 "2011-05-14T01:20:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > To your credit, you’re admitting they don’t and you then proceed to torpedo the argument that “normal interrogation techniques” are more effective than “torture” by saying the reason that the LAPD isn’t as effective is that they are “bound by rules of law”. In short, by your own admission, their “interviews” would be far more effective if they weren’t bound by the rule of law. NO. I am pointing out that your comparison is ludicrous by any standard. Most members of the various gangs are very much known by the police departments. Unlike the _Maquis_, they are not really “secret” societies. However, to the extent that various gang members would like to shield their identities from the police, they are pretty dismal failures without anyone being tortured. The police know who they are, but they still face the task of actually identifying them in the act of committing a crime. No one may be imprisoned simply for being a member of a gang. To the extent that the various torture-using police agencies were “successful” in attacking resistance movements, they differ from municipal police departments in that the police must have an actual crime for which to arrest a person and then must provide evidence for that crime in a court of law, while the person accused is permitted to employ defense counsel. The torture-using agencies were not bound by any such strictures, so they were allowed to round up large numbers of people on the flimsiest excuses and detain or kill them without compunction. This means that by casting a wide net, the odds were that those agencies would capture some resistance fighters by sheer luck, in addition to those handed over by betrayers and those identified through routine police interrogation, and they were then under no obligation to try them fairly, so that any capture tended to end in the removal of the person from the resistance. That, not some odd claims of the efficacy of torture, is why the Gestapo and related outfits have the appearance of being “more successful” than the LAPD. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/275 "2011-05-14T01:51:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I am responding to you. I claimed that a consensus of professional interrogators feel that torture provides unreliable information. > > I, and others provided cites to support that. You have consistently pretended those cites don’t exist. You are not willing to accept that it is even possible that you are wrong, and no information that could possibly exist could meet your standards. > > Please don’t misrepresent my role in this. Nope. You can’t make a cite say something just by insisting that that’s what it says. I’m done with you. you’ve demonstrated your ability to think and process arguments in this thread. I’m not going to be able to improve that ability by continuing to argue with you, so I’m going to stop trying. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/276 "2011-05-14T02:04:47Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope. You can’t make a cite say something just by insisting that that’s what it says. > > I’m done with you. you’ve demonstrated your ability to think and process arguments in this thread. I’m not going to be able to improve that ability by continuing to argue with you, so I’m going to stop trying. As I said, you will accept nothing but a poll of every interrogator on Earth. My cite demonstrates what I said. You show a consensus by showing what every major intelligence agency thinks. I, and others have shown this. You don’t accept it, yet you offer nothing to rebut. There isn’t a national board of consensus where the consensuses are stored, ready to be linked to. And running away and pretending you win doesn’t make you the victor. It’s just pathetic. So yeah, leave the thread, you aren’t engaging in any but the most vestigial way anyway. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/277 "2011-05-14T02:07:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope. You can’t make a cite say something just by insisting that that’s what it says. > > I’m done with you. you’ve demonstrated your ability to think and process arguments in this thread. I’m not going to be able to improve that ability by continuing to argue with you, so I’m going to stop trying. Piffle, It is not just for you that we reply, but it is clear that you are not touching the evidence presented, with nothing to support them your arguments are just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/278 "2011-05-14T02:09:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > To the extent that the various torture-using police agencies were “successful” in attacking resistance movements, they differ from municipal police departments in that the police must have an actual crime for which to arrest a person and then must provide evidence for that crime in a court of law, while the person accused is permitted to employ defense counsel. The torture-using agencies were not bound by any such strictures, so they were allowed to round up large numbers of people on the flimsiest excuses and detain or kill them without compunction. This means that by casting a wide net, the odds were that those agencies would capture some resistance fighters by sheer luck, in addition to those handed over by betrayers and those identified through routine police interrogation, and they were then under no obligation to try them fairly, so that any capture tended to end in the removal of the person from the resistance. That, not some odd claims of the efficacy of torture, is why the Gestapo and related outfits have the appearance of being “more successful” than the LAPD. IIRC in one case the Gestapo nearly depopulated a town in search of bad guys (maybe a 1-2 thousand people). Did they catch “bad guys” (as they would define it)? Probably. Was the whole town “bad guys”? Nope. Is that successful? (rhetorical question) If you kill everyone you are sure to get the bad ones. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/279 "2011-05-16T21:17:20Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > If it were true - it wouldn’t change my point of view that torture is evil and more damaging to those who perform it than anything Bin Laden ever planned. I don’t believe I’ve ever claimed that it couldn’t possibly result in usable info but my objection to it is on moral grounds so that’s really beside the point, imo. > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Was this ever the argument? I don’t think it was. > > There were several arguments against waterboarding, but I don’t recall any that said all the intel garnered from the technique was false. > > The two salient arguments I can recall were: > > 1. You _could_ get actionable intelligence, but it would also be mixed in with a bunch of junk. > > 2. There are more efficient interrogation techniques. Retired intelligence and military interrogation officers have come out and repeated this and there are decades old US interrogation manuals that also back this up. > > I can get apples off my tree by blasting them with a shotgun, but it’s probably a better idea to find a ladder. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I do not think anyone ever claimed torture _never_ results in truthful information being given. It is just considered the worst possible way to obtain reliable intelligence in the military/law enforcement community. Napoleon even knew this and he’d be a guy who’d have your nuts in a vice in seconds if he thought it’d have been useful. > > Nazis knew it too. > > The problem with torture is the prisoner will say anything to make the torture stop. Whatever they think you want to hear they’ll say. The problem for the interrogators is deciding what parts are actually true and often they have no clue. IIRC there was a case in South America where Pinochet’s goons were torturing a woman for information. As it happened she spilled the beans almost immediately but they did not believe her and continued to torture her. Eventually (a week or two later) they realized the original info was the truth but by that time the info was useless and helped them not at all. > > So no, this cannot be claimed as a victory for waterboarding even if we did gain that info via waterboarding. So you guys have never heard anyone say “torture doesn’t work” > [@What\_Exit](#): > > Torture is wrong, when we do it we don the black hat. But in defense of the OP there are people in the past that have tried to claim that not only is torture wrong that it also never works. > > I think it is clear torture often works but we need to maintain the high road and not use torture. Not exactly a cite but at least one other poster agrees that people have claimed that torture doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/280 "2011-05-16T21:35:33Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I am responding to you. I claimed that a consensus of professional interrogators feel that torture provides unreliable information. > > I, and others provided cites to support that. You have consistently pretended those cites don’t exist. You are not willing to accept that it is even possible that you are wrong, and no information that could possibly exist could meet your standards. > > Please don’t misrepresent my role in this. Of course torture can provide unreliable information. But it can also provide reliable information if there is good feedback. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=15)