# Did waterboarding help kill Bin Laden? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487 "2011-05-02T16:54:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/341 "2011-06-06T02:47:55Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Says the guy who provides no cites. What claim have I made that I need to provide a cite for? (Also, I did provide a link to an article wherein a former CIA director discusses the effectiveness of EITs.) > [@](#): > > Your arguments, such as they are, fail. You are the only person here who thinks you have a legitimate point to make. I have no doubt about that. It’s taking longer than we thought indeed. > [@](#): > > The only reason people are still participating in this thread is a morbid fascination to see how long you will continue to hold to a thoroughly debunked notion. Which is what, exactly? > [@](#): > > You have not won a point anywhere in this thread. You seem to think everyone else just misunderstands the points you are making so you are right and they are wrong. There is a landslide of evidence against your position yet you remain recalcitrant. What do you think my position is? > [@](#): > > That is a sign of mental illness. Seek help. I am not kidding. (Unless you are being intentionally argumentative for the sake of argument.) Nope, just trying to fight ignorance. People of a certain bent believe that their opinion on an issue means something. They think they can read some stuff and then conclude “EITs are ineffective” and then fight tooth and nail against anyone who doesn’t agree with them. I, on the other hand, am happy concluding that I’m not qualified to conclude whether or not EITs are effective, that my opinion on the matter is about as meaningful as my opinion on which course of treatment to use against a particular form of cancer (I’m a lawyer, by the way). Also, I think that many of the people arguing that EITs aren’t effective simply aren’t able to separate out the efficacy issue from the moral/practical/“should it be done” issue. It’s possible to believe that EITs can be effective while also believing they shouldn’t be done (as at least one poster in this thread has demonstrated). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/342 "2011-06-06T02:56:05Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You have got to be kidding me. That article was written by two undergraduate students, and they cite absolutely nothing for the existence of a consensus. As I noticed, those undergraduates were already involved or going to work on high profile cases, in any case, if you were correct a rebuttal in a journal could be found then against them, and quickly. I expect that you will find none. The consensus they speak is not only coming from the many cites already presented, once again, if your position had any logic, most of the interrogators would come forward with evidence that most of them do think that torture is good to use; as it is, it is clear that we had just vindictive POS civilians like Bush and company that thought they knew better. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/343 "2011-06-06T02:58:48Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As I noticed, those undergraduates were already involved or going to work on high profile cases, in any case, if you were correct a rebuttal could be found then, and quickly. > > I expect that you will find none. I’ve provided all the rebuttal that is necessary. They made an unsupported assertion and I called them on it. Also, funny how this post shows how you think. In your world, anything that isn’t true gets “rebutted” by a post on one of your favorite little sites (e.g., thinkprogress), so you think that if what they said was untrue I could just go to some website and look up a handy ready-made rebuttal of it, and the fact that I haven’t posted such a cite means that what they said is true. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/344 "2011-06-06T03:14:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’ve provided all the rebuttal that is necessary. No you didn’t. You \*said \*you did. > [@](#): > > They made an unsupported assertion and I called them on it. The assertion is supported with cites. You have ignored those cites. Protip: Pretending facts you find objectionable don’t exist doesn’t actually make reality change. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/345 "2011-06-06T03:16:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’ve provided all the rebuttal that is necessary. They made an unsupported assertion and I called them on it. The support comes from the other cite from the same post (it had not only the paper from the undergraduates) that everyone can notice you decided to ignore. BTW it is when going to the academic setting where I notice even less support for your agnosticism on this matter. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Also, funny how this post shows how you think. In your world, anything that isn’t true gets “rebutted” by a post on one of your favorite little sites (e.g., thinkprogress), so you think that if what they said was untrue I could just go to some website and look up a handy ready-made rebuttal of it, and the fact that I haven’t posted such a cite means that what they said is true. Nope, as you always seem to fond of, you only show that you are willing to ignore academic and papers from experts on the matter like the ones from post #214 and #106 (that last paper BTW was from Lisa Hajjar, Associate Professor of the University of Santa Barbara). Ignoring evidence \*\*is \*\*how you think, and all are aware of it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/346 "2011-06-06T03:42:58Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What is the position I’m claiming you hold that you don’t actually hold? I’m honestly confused here. I have claimed only that you hold the position that there is a consensus that EITs are ineffective. That statement is not accurate. You have also claimed > [@](#): > > First, on the subject of EITs and “torture,” you are the one that (i) thinks all EITs are “torture” and (ii) reads statements condemning “torture” and thinks they must apply to all EITs. I have made neither of those claims. You then repeat that assertion in the post to which I am replying: > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You are the one who reads others saying that “torture isn’t effective” and extrapolates that into “EITs aren’t effective.” The burden is on you to show that all your sources discussing “torture” are also discussing the EITs. I have never made any claim about all EITs being torture and your insistence that I have is nonsense. The thread moved on from merely EITs to the effectiveness of actual torture many weeks ago. You are merely playing word games at this point. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Here’s perhaps the most bizarre part. In the first part of your post, you say that I’m claiming you hold a position you don’t hold. Here, you say that I hold a position I don’t hold. I’ve been very clear through this thread that I have no opinion about whether the EITs are effective and that I’m not qualified to hold such an opinion. And yet you and others insist that I’m trying to argue that EITs are effective. Not accurate. As noted, the discussion moved from “EIT” to torture a long time ago. You are simply playing word games at this point. And I have not argued that you believe that either EIT or torture are effective (again ascribing to me a position that I have not expressed); I simply have noted that you are playing games in this thread, responding to posters who are discussing torture with assertions about EITs while carefully never distinguishing what you believe might be a difference. There are a couple of posters who have equated EITs and torture as a congruent set, but neither Lobohan nor I have done so, yet you persist in ascribing that conflation to us instead of clarifying your position. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/347 "2011-06-06T13:48:48Z")
OK, I see. But I think my basic point is still applicable: you read stuff where people say “torture is ineffective,” and you think that by “torture” they must mean everything that you think is included in that term. Therefore, you think there is a consensus that what you define as torture is ineffective (and I’m not even mentioning the other problems with finding a consensus in this manner, which I’ve discussed above). In reality, people can mean a wide variety of different things by the word “torture.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/348 "2011-06-06T14:14:24Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > OK, I see. But I think my basic point is still applicable: you read stuff where people say “torture is ineffective,” and you think that by “torture” they must mean everything that you think is included in that term. Therefore, you think there is a consensus that what you define as torture is ineffective (and I’m not even mentioning the other problems with finding a consensus in this manner, which I’ve discussed above). In reality, people can mean a wide variety of different things by the word “torture.” What an _amazing_ display of mind reading! Have you considered applying for the Million Dollar Challenge? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/349 "2011-06-06T14:22:39Z")
The mind reading is on the part of those who think there is a consensus. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/350 "2011-06-06T14:42:48Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The mind reading is on the part of those who think there is a consensus. You’re mistaken, the \*reading \*part is what makes us think there is consensus. You, who simply ignore cites and cling to your uninformed status, are the one performing the supernatural feats of denial here. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/351 "2011-06-06T15:31:00Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You keep saying that, yet that is not what the posters currently arguing with you have said, so who do you claim is saying it? Show me where any of the people I am arguing with actually admit that torture works. I can certainly show you where they have stated in previous threads that torture doesn’t work. or are you saying that people have NOT said such a thing in the past? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/352 "2011-06-06T15:41:07Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And my broken clock is ultra precise some of the time, too. An anecdote is not data, it’s certainly not statistical evidence that torture is more (or even _as_) useful or efficient than not-torture. You’re like the third person to use this analogy in this thread (and Tomndebb wonders where I get the impression that people are claiming that torture doesn’t work). Its not like a broken clock that coinicdentally happens to be right twice a day. There was specific information that the torture was being used to extract and specific verifiable information was extracted. Its that simple. > [@](#): > > Do also note that in your particular cite, the information obtained through torture also happens to throw the whole case to the dogs and is very likely to get the bad guy set free in spite of the fact that he’s guilty as sin. > So there’s that. Thats the defense attorney’s position. My crim pro is a bit fuzzy but I believe the law (and bricker can correct me if he’s paying attention) is that I cannot use such evidence against the person whose rights were vilated. For example, if I perform a warrantless search in your house and uncover evidence, I cannot use that evidence against you but I can use it against your partners in crime. I believe this was a case of using information gained through torture against someone other than the torture victim. Besides, we’re talking about using torture outside the criminal procedure context. We are just arguing about whether or not it works. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/353 "2011-06-06T15:44:21Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope, the evidence is against you, as I said, it may work; but if it was reliable it would be recommended by all experts or the evidence would had piled up in your favor. As it is, the evidence is still in favor of torture being right on occasion like a broken clock. And as history shows, the main reason torture is used is as a tool to instigate fear, not to get good information. They torture to justify a path that fools even a nation. > > In the end you really just avoided dealing with the fact that torture gave us false information to justify the Iraq war, and under a situation that should had been “the right circumstances” for it to work. Wait, WHAT!?!?! WTF does torture have to do with false information about the invasion of Iraq? What evidence is against me? That people aren’t willing to go on the record saying that they have tortured people and it works? The broken clock analogy is still stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/354 "2011-06-06T15:45:42Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Making the analogy that one’s opponent’s arguments are similar to the rote repetition of a parrot are not pleasant, but are acceptable. > Calling one’s opponent a parrot is name-calling. > > Knock it off. > > [/Moderating] Which is funny considering how rote his arguments tend to be on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/355 "2011-06-06T15:49:31Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Torture does not work. Since a person will say anything to make the pain stop. what is the value? If all they told was the truth, you would have something. But they just start blabbing whatever they think you want to hear in order to make the pain go away. So torture is worthless. > When Saddam was jailed, the interrogator said he had to get close to him to get intell. He had to be friends and ingratiate him to Saddam. He said he hated Saddam, but he had to cover it up to get the info. There you go tomndebb, You still think noone is taking this position? I think you go just trying to see reasoanbleness from your side while searching for unreasonableness from mine. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/356 "2011-06-06T15:50:49Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The mind reading is on the part of those who think there is a consensus. If there was, then how do you explain why it is that when historians or reporters bother to ask the experts, the vast majority of them report that Torture is not reliable? [http://www.historyandpolicy.org/papers/policy-paper-78.html](http://www.historyandpolicy.org/papers/policy-paper-78.html) > [@](#): > > historical examples suggest that the use of torture should be prohibited during interrogations, not just because it is morally reprehensible, but because, **as historical precedents show** , it does not produce reliable intelligence. > **[Tortured Reasoning](https://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2008/12/torture200812)** > > George W. Bush defended harsh interrogations by pointing to intelligence breakthroughs, but a surprising number of counterterrorist officials say that, apart from being wrong, torture just doesn’t work. Delving into two high-profile cases, David Rose... > [@](#): > > In researching this article, I spoke to numerous counterterrorist officials from agencies on both sides of the Atlantic. **Their conclusion is unanimous: not only have coercive methods failed to generate significant and actionable intelligence, they have also caused the squandering of resources on a massive scale through false leads, chimerical plots, and unnecessary safety alerts—with Abu Zubaydah’s case one of the most glaring examples.** ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/357 "2011-06-06T15:51:48Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope. > > [http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/06/02/234538/hayden-birthers-truthers/](http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/06/02/234538/hayden-birthers-truthers/) > > [Tortured Logic – Foreign Policy](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/05/04/tortured_logic?print=yes&hidecomments=yes&page=full) Now you are torturing the facts to find an interpretation that will leave some room for the possibility that torture was not an element of the discovery of bin Laden. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/358 "2011-06-06T15:53:19Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > Could I get a cite for this incident? Not even related to this debate, this bit just sounds really fascinating, historically. (My view of “fascinating” runs a bit morbid, admittedly. 🙂 ) Follow the thread back. I cite a newpaper article where the defense attorney for one of the klansmen that had been convicted for the murders of the freedom rigders is trying to overturn the conviction in part on the basis that the bodies were discovered by torturing one of his associates. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/359 "2011-06-06T15:54:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Are you sure this actually happened and you’re not thinking of the movie\* Mississippi Burning \*because that sounds remarkably like a scene from the movie which the director made up. I cited an article. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/360 "2011-06-06T15:56:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Wait, WHAT!?!?! WTF does torture have to do with false information about the invasion of Iraq? I already posted the evidence from the report by The New Yorker, it is not my problem if you missed it. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What evidence is against me? That people aren’t willing to go on the record saying that they have tortured people and it works? As history shows, reprehensible rulers do not care that it works, they only care that it works to lead others into supporting the regime or a stupid war. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The broken clock analogy is still stupid. No, it is based on historical precedent, unlike others that claim that torture never works, I do think it can work on occasion, but it would require an extraordinary set of circumstances, the previous administration (that is the focus of this current discussion) did not had that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=19)