# Did waterboarding help kill Bin Laden? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487 "2011-05-02T16:54:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/41 "2011-05-02T20:26:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And while it is true that Khalid Shaikh Mohamed was tortured, there is no reason to believe that he gave up good information during that process, as opposed to giving good information when the torture was suspended and more effective techniques were emplolyed. The news article is little more than an exercise in _post hoc, ergo propter hoc_ speculation. Based on the info we have, there is also no reason to believe that he did **not** give up good information during that process. Also, all of the talk in this thread about “torture” is completely off topic. This thread is about the enhanced interrogation techniques used against KSM, not “torture.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/42 "2011-05-02T20:27:41Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Also, all of the talk in this thread about “torture” is completely off topic. This thread is about the enhanced interrogation techniques used against KSM, not “torture.” If this was **Der Trihs** posting, I’d appreciate the sarcastic jibe at Rovian doublespeak. But I somehow get the impression you’re being serious. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/43 "2011-05-02T20:33:46Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Also, all of the talk in this thread about “torture” is completely off topic. This thread is about the enhanced interrogation techniques used against KSM, not “torture.” It’s very clear in context that the “enhanced interrogation techniques” are being described as torture. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/44 "2011-05-02T20:39:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s very clear in context that the “enhanced interrogation techniques” are being described as torture. You could also call them “tickling” if you want to. Or “teasing.” Or anything. Really it’s a good thing that some people are so loose with language–it typically shows that they are loose with their thinking as well. The “torture is bad and this is bad because it’s torture” camp is doing a good job of demonstrating the strength of their position in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/45 "2011-05-02T20:43:55Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Really it’s a good thing that some people are so loose with language–it typically shows that they are loose with their thinking as well. Agreed. A willingness to call a spade a spade is essential if we’re going to have an honest conversation about the uses of violence. Politically correct weasel words like “enhanced interrogation techniques” only muddle the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/46 "2011-05-02T20:45:36Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You could also call them “tickling” if you want to. Or “teasing.” Or anything. I’m tempted to apply a different t-word to your behavior. The first sentence of your first post was on topic for this thread. The rest of your contribution has included a little junior moderation and some strawman arguments about something nobody said. Do better or find a different thread to post in. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/47 "2011-05-02T20:48:02Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > You obviously haven’t read any timeline regarding the intel related to finding and killing Bin Laden. It took time to: > > - find out the couriers existed > - identify the couriers > - locate the couriers > - conduct surveillance on the couriers > - plan the operation > - etc. You’re arguing from the postulate that torture was absolutely required for step 1. That is doubtful. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/48 "2011-05-02T20:49:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m tempted to apply a different t-word to your behavior. The first sentence of your first post was on topic for this thread. The rest of your contribution has included a little junior moderation and some strawman arguments about something nobody said. Do better or find a different thread to post in. Thanks, I have accepted your invitation. > **[Modding for content](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=592567)** > > Why do it? Mods–why close down a thread or admonish posters for a post simply because you don’t like the content of the thread or post? Here’s the latest example: Which Of These Points of Divergences Would Have Produced The Best World - In My... ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/49 "2011-05-02T20:58:01Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You could also call them “tickling” if you want to. Or “teasing.” Or anything. > > Really it’s a good thing that some people are so loose with language–it typically shows that they are loose with their thinking as well. The “torture is bad and this is bad because it’s torture” camp is doing a good job of demonstrating the strength of their position in this thread. I have never seen anyone who was waterboarded describe it as anything other than torture. In fact, the US prosecuted some Japanese after WWII for using waterboarding and the US described it as “torture”. > [@](#): > > After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: “I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure.” He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. “Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning,” he replied, “just gasping between life and death.” > > Nielsen’s experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan’s military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding. > > SOURCE: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html) The euphemism is calling a torture technique an “enhanced interrogation technique”. ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/50 "2011-05-02T21:21:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You’re arguing from the postulate that torture was absolutely required for step 1. That is doubtful. No, I said torture may have led to step 1. Where’s the “absolutely required” part? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/51 "2011-05-02T21:28:56Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] You mean something that among other things is known to cause hallucinations and general irrationality? Yeah, I’m sure you get real reliable information from someone you are in the process of driving insane. [/QUOTE] I suppose that any sort of interrogation technique could have a similar effect if you take it too far or don’t know what you are doing. I didn’t say that sleep deprivation was 100%…merely that I’ve heard that it and some other enhanced interrogation techniques are somewhat effective. Obviously if you use them to the point of driving the person being interrogated insane it’s not going to be all that effective. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/52 "2011-05-02T21:38:18Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > No, I said torture may have led to step 1. Where’s the “absolutely required” part? Seems implicit to the notion that torture leading to step 1 could/should lead to one re-assessing one’s opinion on torture. If both torture and not-torture can lead to the same outcome, then the pragmatic assessment of torture is still that it’s unnecessary besides being immoral, barbaric and inhumane (or rather very very humane but then again humans are bastards) ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/53 "2011-05-02T21:48:27Z")
I believe torture is a moral wrong no matter what the results. Additionally, I have not seen any information that leads me to believe that torture was required, or even beneficial, in getting this result. I do believe that it shows that there is some value to detention of high-value terrorist suspects and well-disciplined interrogation programs. I think it possibly reinforces that Obama was correct in maintaining the Gitmo detention facilities in spite of his promise to shut it down. Whether these suspects could have been relocated is unknown, but considering the pushback from Congress the present course was probably the best one. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/54 "2011-05-03T01:55:55Z")
[More about KSM’s interrogation at a black site in Eastern Europe.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110502/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden_hunt_for_bin_laden) > [@](#): > > Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/55 "2011-05-03T03:07:37Z")
The obvious issue for me is if they have any ‘live’ sources that really led to the finding, they’re not going to be advertising it, and will be trying to claim it was done via alternative sources. I dont see a way to really be sure whats going on at this point in time. I tend to agree that this is a retroactive ends justify the means scenario. You dont get to torture people because it might be useful 8 years later. Otara ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/56 "2011-05-03T04:24:28Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I do not think anyone ever claimed torture _never_ results in truthful information being given. It is just considered the worst possible way to obtain reliable intelligence in the military/law enforcement community. Napoleon even knew this and he’d be a guy who’d have your nuts in a vice in seconds if he thought it’d have been useful. > > Nazis knew it too. > > The problem with torture is the prisoner will say anything to make the torture stop. Whatever they think you want to hear they’ll say. The problem for the interrogators is deciding what parts are actually true and often they have no clue. IIRC there was a case in South America where Pinochet’s goons were torturing a woman for information. As it happened she spilled the beans almost immediately but they did not believe her and continued to torture her. Eventually (a week or two later) they realized the original info was the truth but by that time the info was useless and helped them not at all. > > So no, this cannot be claimed as a victory for waterboarding even if we did gain that info via waterboarding. Well, there’s the qualifiers; Using this Pinochet et al criteria, we can say that initial waterboard results should be regarded as truthful, and time is of the essence. Best wishes, hh ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/57 "2011-05-03T05:16:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [More about KSM’s interrogation at a black site in Eastern Europe.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110502/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden_hunt_for_bin_laden) And one should not forget also that in the case of Al-Libi and others, torture gave us false information connecting Osama to Iraq, sending us on the path of an elective war that drained our resources that would had taken care of Osama sooner rather than later. > **[Who Is Omar Suleiman?](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/who-is-omar-suleiman)** > > One of the “new” names being mentioned as a possible alternative to President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, Omar Suleiman, is actually not so new to anyone … > [@](#): > > What happened to Libi in Egypt, while in the custody of the Egyptian intelligence service, is documented in detail in a bipartisan report released in 2006 by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. According to the report, Libi later told the C.I.A. that the Egyptian authorities grew dissatisfied with his level of cooperation, so they locked him in a tiny cage for eighty hours. Then they took him out, knocked him over, and punched him for fifteen minutes. The Egyptian officials were pressing Libi, who knew Bin Laden personally, to confirm the Bush Administration’s contention that there were links between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. In particular, the Egyptians wanted Libi to confirm that the Iraqis were in the process of giving Al Qaeda biological and chemical weapons. In pushing this line of inquiry, the Egyptians appear to have been acting in accordance with the wishes of the U.S., which wanted to document its case for going to war against Iraq. Under duress, Libi eventually gave in. Details from his confession went into the pivotal speech that then-Secretary of State Colin Powell gave to the United Nations in Feburary of 2003, making the case for war. And in the the end, we got about a million people death in Iraq (including about 5000 coalition forces) thanks in part to the use of torture… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/58 "2011-05-03T05:39:52Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Well, there’s the qualifiers; Using this Pinochet et al criteria, we can say that initial waterboard results should be regarded as truthful, and time is of the essence. > Best wishes, > hh Err…huh? My Pinochet example noted that they got good intel immediately but could not discern it from bad intel (that is the point) so did not believe it. After a lot more torture they decided that was the truth but that ship had sailed and the intel at that point was worthless. Point being is a torturer does not know good intel from bad. They get a pile of “data” and have to track it all down. It is a waste of their time. Want good info? Do not torture the person you want info from. As noted before even Napoleon knew this. This is not new stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/59 "2011-05-03T05:55:02Z")
[Rumsfeld says the intel that lead to Osama’s capture was not attained from waterboarding](http://thinkprogress.org/2011/05/02/rumsfeld-bin-laden-gitmo/), FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/60 "2011-05-03T06:30:56Z")
Let’s try putting this in more practical terms. First, knowing what we know now, and assuming that it was the torture of KSM that led to the intelligence that led to bin Laden’s death, then if I could push a button that would rewind the clock to KSM’s capture and somehow prohibit all torture done under Bush, knowing it would lead to bin Laden _not_ being cornered and killed a couple days ago: Would I push the button? Yes. The death of bin Laden was not worth the moral price America paid for the insitutionalization of torture. And if we’re to count bin Laden’s death as the reward for that institutionalization, then we must also count the costs–such as the effects of Abu Graib, all the stories out of Afghanistan, all the missed prosecutions, and the effect on Americans who became torturers. Second, assuming that the torture of KSM lead eventually to bin Laden’s death: Should we reconsider the institutional use of torture for the future? No. We have ample experience and expertise telling us that torture is not generally a useful way of gathering information. That it happens to work occasionally should not gainsay all our knowledge of how often it _doesn’t_ work, and how much more effective other techniques are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=4)