# Did waterboarding help kill Bin Laden? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487 "2011-05-02T16:54:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/81 "2011-05-03T19:11:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’ll look at those cites later when I get a chance. I have no doubt that none of them say anything about a consensus of working interrogators, and the consensus exists in your mind only. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > My only view is that it doesn’t matter what my view is. I think the first quote points out the truth of the second quote quite admirably. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/82 "2011-05-03T19:14:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think the first quote points out the truth of the second quote quite admirably. And I think this post points out the truth of the following quote: > [@](#): > > I know it’s hard for some of you to grasp nuances of issues beyond “torture bad!” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/83 "2011-05-03T19:18:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’ll look at those cites later when I get a chance. I find that highly unlikely. More likely, you’ll forget about it and bring the same objections up next time. > [@](#): > > I have no doubt that none of them say anything about a consensus of working interrogators, and the consensus exists in your mind only. We have shown consensus via citations, why on Earth should you be able to dismiss our arguments when you are unwilling to read them? This is a debate forum. If you just want to piss around and ignore facts why not head to IMHO? > [@](#): > > Also, for all of you insisting that I provide a cite that enhanced interrogation techniques are effective, I’ll remind you that I never said that I believe they are effective. Here’s my position (as I stated upthread): You made accusations that I simply want to find experts to support my positions. That assertion is baldly wrong, and you still refuse to acknowledge it. > [@](#): > > I know it’s hard for some of you to grasp nuances of issues beyond “torture bad!” but please do try. You are mis-characterizing the people you’re arguing against. This is understandable, since your position has nothing factual to back it up. > [@](#): > > Just because I disagree that “torture bad!” doesn’t mean I believe it’s effective. If you don’t agree that “torture bad” you aren’t being particularly in line with American ideals. If it doesn’t provide superior intelligence using torture is simply evil. > [@](#): > > My only view is that it doesn’t matter what my view is. Since your view is based on no facts I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/84 "2011-05-03T19:19:57Z")
Lobo, in the mountains of links to web pages posted above, care to steer me in the direction of anything purporting to provide a consensus of working interrogators? Maybe quote a choice bit of something? Thanking you in advance. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/85 "2011-05-03T19:26:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You DO realize that you and John Mace are basically on the same side of this discussion and that he was merely amending a rather minor point you had made in the discussion, right? Wait—your post seems to imply that there exists some relationship between what **Elucidator** posts and any point made in a post he responds to. I thought he just used any old post as a tee from which to launch one on his oh-so-entertaining bon mots. Not that I’m doubting you, mind you. But that notion never occurred to me. Consider ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/86 "2011-05-03T19:27:16Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Lobo, in the mountains of links to web pages posted above, care to steer me in the direction of anything purporting to provide a consensus of working interrogators? Maybe quote a choice bit of something? Thanking you in advance. You asked for cites, and cites were provided. I think it’s rather obvious based on your postings in this thread that nothing will come of this but even more rewrites of other peoples posts and demands for cites. You got exactly the cites you asked for-the _least_ you could do is have the decency to look at them. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/87 "2011-05-03T19:30:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You asked for cites, and cites were provided. I think it’s rather obvious based on your postings in this thread that nothing will come of this but even more rewrites of other peoples posts and demands for cites. You got exactly the cites you asked for-the _least_ you could do is have the decency to look at them. Czarcasm, are you going to offer anything substantive on this discussion at all? Or are you just going to follow me around and nip at my heels? Lobo said he bases his belief on a consensus of working interrogators. Then he and others provide links to a bunch of web pages. I asked where I could find a discussion of this consensus of working interrogators. I think that’s an appropriate question. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/88 "2011-05-03T19:42:04Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Czarcasm, are you going to offer anything substantive on this discussion at all? Or are you just going to follow me around and nip at my heels? > > Lobo said he bases his belief on a consensus of working interrogators. Then he and others provide links to a bunch of web pages. I asked where I could find a discussion of this consensus of working interrogators. I think that’s an appropriate question. You literally want a poll? Is that the game you’re playing? Every US intelligence agency thinks it doesn’t provide reliable info. Explain in detail what you want, what would satisfy your ideological armor of disbelief? I can provide ten thousand professional interrogators and you’d still hide behind your wall of indifferent-to-facts-opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/89 "2011-05-03T19:42:54Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Czarcasm, are you going to offer anything substantive on this discussion at all? Or are you just going to follow me around and nip at my heels? > > Lobo said he bases his belief on a consensus of working interrogators. Then he and others provide links to a bunch of web pages. I asked where I could find a discussion of this consensus of working interrogators. I think that’s an appropriate question. Dude, you just aren’t worth the bother of following around. I was already getting something substantive from this thread until you started throwing up your usual roadblocks-rewording other people’s posts and demanding cites over and over and over again. Well, people went through some time and effort to find the cites you kept whining about, so would it really be too much to ask you to spend a fraction of that time and effort to click on a link or two? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/90 "2011-05-03T19:46:02Z")
Wait, I get it. **Rand Rover** is asking for a cite which itself says “a consensus of interrogators agree”. But then, that’ll only be one cite saying that: Then we’ll need to show that a consensus of all sites agree that there is a consensus. But how will we show that that’s the consensus of all sites? Well, we’ll need to find a consensus on that point, and so on. Let’s just cut that short, shall we? “Consensus” means that most relevant folks agree. The fact-based folks in this thread have already shown that the Army, the CIA, the FBI, and assorted other agencies all say that torture doesn’t work. In other words, a consensus. We don’t need a cite for the consensus itself because we’ve demonstrated that right here. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/91 "2011-05-03T19:53:57Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You literally want a poll? Is that the game you’re playing? Every US intelligence agency thinks it doesn’t provide reliable info. Explain in detail what you want, what would satisfy your ideological armor of disbelief? > > I can provide ten thousand professional interrogators and you’d still hide behind your wall of indifferent-to-facts-opinion. :rolleyes: I want nothing more than for you to support the claims you are making. I won’t even ask you to support the obviously hyperbolic ones, like “Every US intelligence agency thinks it doesn’t provide reliable info.” See, a “consensus” is a funny thing. When people are motivated to report only a certain side of an issue, and then other people are motivated to read only that same side of an issue, a “consensus” has a way of coming into existence by sheer force of will of consumers (instead of generators) of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/92 "2011-05-03T19:55:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The fact-based folks in this thread have already shown that the Army, the CIA, the FBI, and assorted other agencies all say that torture doesn’t work. In other words, a consensus. But some of those same people actually use enhanced interrogation techniques in certain circumstances. So what does that tell you? ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/93 "2011-05-03T19:58:10Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > … My view on what is “moral” or “immoral” (if I were to even use those words) is also completely meaningless. … Noted and agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/94 "2011-05-03T19:58:13Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > But some of those same people actually use enhanced interrogation techniques in certain circumstances. So what does that tell you? Can you provide a cite for your claim that the same people that claim that torture doesn’t work use it anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/95 "2011-05-03T19:59:28Z")
I remind everybody of the Great Debates rules on insults. This thread is devolving into pointless sniping on all sides. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/96 "2011-05-03T20:07:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wait, I get it. **Rand Rover** is asking for a cite which itself says “a consensus of interrogators agree”. But then, that’ll only be one cite saying that: Then we’ll need to show that a consensus of all sites agree that there is a consensus. But how will we show that that’s the consensus of all sites? Well, we’ll need to find a consensus on that point, and so on. > > Let’s just cut that short, shall we? “Consensus” means that most relevant folks agree. The fact-based folks in this thread have already shown that the Army, the CIA, the FBI, and assorted other agencies all say that torture doesn’t work. In other words, a consensus. We don’t need a cite for the consensus itself because we’ve demonstrated that right here. I’ll just point out to those who might not be able to get it that those positions don’t come from personal opinions, but rather from a consensus of experts in the organization. The only other group of interrogators I can think of are local law enforcement officers. I’ve heard no desire to bring back torture from them, and the fact that the crime rate has not increased a lot since those methods were banned is another argument against the effectiveness of torture. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/97 "2011-05-03T20:20:05Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > But some of those same people actually use enhanced interrogation techniques in certain circumstances. So what does that tell you? That there are stupid people in any organization and/or politics trumps good sense. > [@](#): > > As the Bush administration completes secret new rules governing interrogations, a group of experts advising the intelligence agencies are arguing that the harsh techniques used since the 2001 terrorist attacks are outmoded, amateurish and unreliable. > > \ > > But in meetings with intelligence officials and in a 325-page initial report completed in December, the researchers have pressed a more practical critique: there is little evidence, they say, that harsh methods produce the best intelligence. > > SOURCE: [http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70B11F83F540C738FDDAC0894DF404482](http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70B11F83F540C738FDDAC0894DF404482) > [@](#): > > When confronted with the question whether the FBI should join agencies using more aggressive interviewing techniques, FBI Director Mueller decided that the FBI would not do so. As the IG report notes: “…the FBI has consistently stated its belief that the most effective way to obtain accurate information is to use rapport-building techniques in interviews.” > > SOURCE: [http://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/coercive-interrogation-techniques-do-they-work-are-they-reliable-and-what-did-the-fbi-know-about-them](http://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/coercive-interrogation-techniques-do-they-work-are-they-reliable-and-what-did-the-fbi-know-about-them) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/98 "2011-05-03T20:55:40Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That there are stupid people in any organization and/or politics trumps good sense. So despite what was previously claimed, it isn’t the same people that say that torture doesn’t work that also use it anyway, but _different_ people. Thank you. Of course, being the open-minded guy I am, if **Rand Rover** can provide cites that back up _his_ claim, I’d be willing to take a look. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/99 "2011-05-03T21:01:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So despite what was previously claimed, it isn’t the same people that say that torture doesn’t work that also use it anyway, but _different_ people. Thank you. > Of course, being the open-minded guy I am, if **Rand Rover** can provide cites that back up _his_ claim, I’d be willing to take a look. If you remember,. there was some concern a few years ago about interrogators starting to work who had grown up watching 24, and had been convinced that the stuff they showed there actually worked. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/100 "2011-05-04T00:51:42Z")
The overall on-topic response\* so far can be summarized as: 1. No, torture is just wrong. 2. Eight years? I’m not impressed. \*\* So, with the OP’s permission, I would like to expand the question. Do you think the continued extra-legal detentions assisted in obtaining the necessary intelligence? If so, does this change your opinion of that? - This does leave out the “Actually, the information wasn’t obtained through torture” as that does not acknowledge the original premise. \*\* This is intended to include the “Torture is widely held to be counter-productive to obtaining reliable intelligence.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=6)