# Did waterboarding help kill Bin Laden? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487 "2011-05-02T16:54:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/101 "2011-05-04T01:10:58Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > :rolleyes: > > I want nothing more than for you to support the claims you are making. I won’t even ask you to support the obviously hyperbolic ones, like “Every US intelligence agency thinks it doesn’t provide reliable info.” > > See, a “consensus” is a funny thing. When people are motivated to report only a certain side of an issue, and then other people are motivated to read only that same side of an issue, a “consensus” has a way of coming into existence by sheer force of will of consumers (instead of generators) of the facts. Theres a reason we do double blind studies, and a reason to be cautious about claims something works if people cant supply empirical evidence. Force of will works both ways, people will work very hard to say what they’re doing is effective, even when they have only post-hoc evidence to do so. eg 10 people tortured, 2 people talk. 10 people interrogated using normal methods, 4 people talk. Which one was effective? Otara ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/102 "2011-05-04T01:24:46Z")
I have read many times that interrogators say torture does not work. Bush and Cheney said it did. Many pro war types say it does, to help justify torturing. It would be difficult to admit torture did not work after you authorized it and had it done thousands of times. Oops does not help the guilt go away. But getting close to the prisoner is how jailers get info. But it seems logical that if you torture they will give our everything they know. But the fact is they will say anything they think you want to hear to make the pain go away. The real actionable info comes from creating a relationship with the prisoner.It takes a little time. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/103 "2011-05-04T02:20:42Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Did you even read your link? > > I didn’t see that as over the line. > > How about: [Does torture work? | Science | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/nov/04/2) > > How about: [FM 34-52 Chapter 1](http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/policy/army/fm/fm34-52/chapter1.htm) > > Or does the Army not count because it goes against your unexamined gut-instinct? > > See above. Well, color me unsurprised. Your links do not support your claim that there is a consensus among working interrogators that enhanced interrogation techniques are ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/104 "2011-05-04T03:00:46Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I… The real actionable info comes from creating a relationship with the prisoner.It takes a little time. Could it be argued that terrorizing a prisoner a bit - isolation, hostility, discomfort - before presenting the interogator would speed the process? If so, is that be acceptable? Where is the line? Unpleasant food is okay, starvation is not - what about spoiled food? Beatings are wrong, uncomfortable cots are not - what about cells infested with biting insects? The rules, I believe, come down firmly against the ‘gray’ suggestions above, but are exceptions permissible to ‘soften’ a subject ethically? Morally? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/105 "2011-05-04T03:15:03Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, color me unsurprised. Your links do not support your claim that there is a consensus among working interrogators that enhanced interrogation techniques are ineffective. I can’t force you to accept factual information that contradicts your practiced and fact-free ideology. But don’t for an instant think that anyone here is fooled. In fact, that this blank and worthless deflection is the best you could come up with after hours is admission enough that there is nothing in the universe that could possibly persuade you from your already established beliefs. If you can’t be persuaded with facts, you probably shouldn’t debate. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/106 "2011-05-04T03:19:22Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, color me unsurprised. Your links do not support your claim that there is a consensus among working interrogators that enhanced interrogation techniques are ineffective. As you already ignored the post by the New Yorker on the tale of how torture misled us into Iraq, you should be aware that torture is an effective tool if the truth is not what you seek. > **[The University of Texas School of Law](https://law.utexas.edu)** > > Texas Law: The Best Place in the World to Be a Law Student. PDF file > [@](#): > > Even if Bush administration officials’ proclamations of torture’s efficacy were accurate on their own terms (i.e., take terrorists, add torture, get truthful information, enjoy security), at the time the US torture policy was being devised, its authors couldn’t know but rather had to presume that torture would enable interrogators to extract truthful and useful information from prisoners. this presumption reflects a blithe disregard for the opinions of experts in interrogation (see Department of Army 1992; Johnson 1986; Moyar 1997; Richardson 1987; see also Gudjonsson 2003; Shane & Mazzetti 2009; Swenson 2006). The fact that this presumption prevailed attests to the sway of Cheney’s “one percent doctrine” (Suskind 2006): If there is even a one percent chance that torture will produce actionable intelligence, assume it works and act accordingly. The other fundament of the Bush administration torture policy was the claim that our enemies don’t deserve not to be tortured and therefore torturing our enemies is not wrong (Yoo 2006). > > Such ideas about the efficacious relationship between torture and truth, and the torturability of certain kinds of people bear some striking resemblances to the rationales and legitimizing presumptions for torture in ancient and pre-modern regimes. After the release of the first batch of torture memos, Langbein’s 1977 history of medieval European torture had such renewed interest that it was reissued in 2006. In the new preface, he draws the conclusion that US interrogation policy makers must have been ignorant of history or they would not have replicated one of Western history’s “worst blunders” (Langbein 2006, p. xii). > [@](#): > > From the narrowly construed perspective, the lessons learned from the American case confirm timeless truisms about the consequentialist relationship between torture and truth. “Torture,” as 3rd century AD/CE Roman jurist Ulpian observed, “is a difficult and deceptive thing for the strong will resist and the weak will say anything to end the pain.” As for truth, according to the German Jesuit Friedrich von Spee in 1631, “It is incredible what people say under the compulsion of torture, and how many lies they will tell about themselves and about others; in the end, whatever the torturers want to be true, is true.” For a contemporary judgment about the efficacy of interrogational torture, Rejali’s (2007, p. 478) comparative global assessment is a fitting description of the American case: “[O]rganized torture yields poor information, sweeps up many innocents, degrades organizational capabilities, and destroys interrogators. Limited time during battle or emergency intensifies all these problems.” ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/107 "2011-05-04T12:45:49Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I can’t force you to accept factual information that contradicts your practiced and fact-free ideology. But don’t for an instant think that anyone here is fooled. > > In fact, that this blank and worthless deflection is the best you could come up with after hours is admission enough that there is nothing in the universe that could possibly persuade you from your already established beliefs. If you can’t be persuaded with facts, you probably shouldn’t debate. :rolleyes: Show me where your cite supports the idea that there is a consensus of working interrogators that EITs are ineffective. Or admit that you believe that claim despite the lack of evidence for it. You are the one who doesn’t let facts get in your way. You latch onto what you want to hear and make up facts that would make you happy (ie, your consensus). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/108 "2011-05-04T14:23:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Show me where your cite supports the idea that there is a consensus of working interrogators that EITs are ineffective. Or admit that you believe that claim despite the lack of evidence for it. > > You are the one who doesn’t let facts get in your way. You latch onto what you want to hear and make up facts that would make you happy (ie, your consensus). The links to the large number of official interrogators that say torture doesn’t work _shows_ the consensus. Are you actually saying that a cite doesn’t count unless the word “consensus” appears in it? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/109 "2011-05-04T15:31:16Z")
The idea that the Army Field Manual would state that torture produces unreliable information without first establishing that this was the consensus of experts in the field is laughable, especially in the face of (so far) absolutely zero evidence provided by **Rand** that even one “working interrogator” thinks it is effective. When you add in the CIA and the FBI it is really hard to imagine what type of broader consensus one would require. Perhaps the ISI? Mossad? IRG? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/110 "2011-05-04T15:43:34Z")
I am watching a guy who was involved in 1300 interrogations while in the Army. He says they feel insulted by those who want them to torture. He says they are well trained and can do their job without resorting to torture. He mentions one courier that the intelligence tracked down for 3 years ,wasting tons of money and time. His name was given by a guy they tortured. It was a lie given under torture. Then of course, torture imperils all combatants. If an American gets captured in any future wars, he can expect to be tortured. If it is good enough for us, you can hardly expect our enemies to be better. It demeans the interrogators. They liked to think of themselves as professionals with some standards. Now they are torturers like a medieval country. They are forced to do it by civilians who direct the operations. So they are doing something many of them do not believe works well at all. They find it demeaning . But pro torture fans have to believe it works. Otherwise it says something about them. Torture is nice if you want revenge or want to punish someone. It is not how you get actionable intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/111 "2011-05-04T18:00:05Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > The idea that the Army Field Manual would state that torture produces unreliable information without first establishing that this was the consensus of experts in the field is laughable, Nope, it’s your post that’s laughable. Someone on the other side could say that the idea that intelligence agencies would implement EITs without first establishing that their efficacy was the consensus of experts is laughable, and they’d be making just as bad of an argument as you are. > [@](#): > > especially in the face of (so far) absolutely zero evidence provided by **Rand** that even one “working interrogator” thinks it is effective. As soon as I make the claim that even one working interrogator thinks EITs are effective, you bet your ass I’ll provide solid support for that claim. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/112 "2011-05-04T18:33:42Z")
Children, please! No facts regarding the effectiveness of torture are going to change Service Sector’s mind because his opinion is based on different facts, which are as follows: Republicans utilized torture; he supports the Republicans. That’s all there is to it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/113 "2011-05-04T18:37:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can you provide a cite for your claim that the same people that claim that torture doesn’t work use it anyway? I ask again-can you back this up, **Rand Rover**? Edited to add-And have you read any of the cites that you asked for yet? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/114 "2011-05-04T18:40:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I ask again-can you back this up, **Rand Rover**? My use of the term “people” in that post clearly referred to “the Army, the CIA, the FBI, and assorted other agencies.” > [@](#): > > Edited to add-And have you read any of the cites that you asked for yet? I asked Lobohan for a cite to support his claim, so I read Lobohan’s cites and posted my reaction above. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/115 "2011-05-04T18:42:05Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Children, please! No facts regarding the effectiveness of torture are going to change Service Sector’s mind because his opinion is based on different facts, which are as follows: Republicans utilized torture; he supports the Republicans. > > That’s all there is to it. What’s your evidence for this proposition? Really you have as much evidence for the above as you do for the claim that I am from an torture-loving alien planet who has been sent to the internet to spread the gospel of torture to you earthlings. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/116 "2011-05-04T18:43:47Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What’s your evidence for this proposition? > > Really you have as much evidence for the above as you do for the claim that I am from an torture-loving alien planet who has been sent to the internet to spread the gospel of torture to you earthlings. You aren’t an alien. You’re just not willing to accept facts or change your opinions based on them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/117 "2011-05-04T18:45:40Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > My use of the term “people” in that post clearly referred to “the Army, the CIA, the FBI, and assorted other agencies.” > > I asked Lobohan for a cite to support his claim, so I read Lobohan’s cites and posted my reaction above. Are you saying that you didn’t read any of the other cites just because they weren’t posted by **Lobohan**? Amazing! Would you read them if **Lobohan** went to the ridiculous extreme of cutting and pasting them into his own post? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/118 "2011-05-04T18:46:01Z")
**Rand** , either you’re being really clever or really stupid. Going back to read your initial post it seems to me that you’re making no claims whatsoever as to the efficacy of torture. Is that your position? Because all of the evidence provided in this thread supports the conclusion that torture is ineffective. Either your being intentionally vague in order to not have to provide any evidence, or you’re just being pedantic to be pedantic. Either way it’s not particularly illuminating. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/119 "2011-05-04T18:47:01Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You aren’t an alien. You’re just not willing to accept facts or change your opinions based on them. Facts such as what? The consensus of professional interrogators that EITs are ineffective? Which you’ve posted no evidence for? You pick and choose the facts you want to look at, then you decide that your opinions are based on those hand-selected facts. I’m happy simply not having an opinion on an issue that I don’t feel qualified to have an opinion on. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/120 "2011-05-04T18:48:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you saying that you didn’t read any of the other cites just because they weren’t posted by **Lobohan**? Amazing! > Would you read them if **Lobohan** went to the ridiculous extreme of cutting and pasting them into his own post? I read his cites because that was all the time I was willing to invest in this endeavour last night. I mean, one of the cites someone posted was a web page with a link to a whole bunch of other pages. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=7)