# Did waterboarding help kill Bin Laden? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487 "2011-05-02T16:54:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/141 "2011-05-08T02:38:03Z")
[Very relevant article](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/05/04/tortured_logic?page=0,0) written by one of the interrogators whose work led to the capture of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/142 "2011-05-08T03:09:02Z")
It would seen ROVER needs the interrogators to have a vote. If the vote comes out 51 percent for one side or the other that would prove that torture works or doesn’t. Except of course it proves no such thing. I have read a bit about the professional interrogators. None of them said it was a technique they believed in. However plenty of politicians have said it works. They claim that it was key in getting Osama. Now if politicians say something is so, you can believe it. Of course most of them were Republicans and have an interest in justifying torture since they approved of it. They are defending their party. They don’t want to face the fact that they approve medieval methods. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/143 "2011-05-12T18:20:32Z")
> **[John McCain: Torture Did Not Lead To Osama Bin Laden](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/john-mccain-torture_n_861089)** > > John McCain: Torture Did Not Lead To Osama Bin Laden Here is McCain stating clearly that torture had nothing to do with the locating of Bin Laden. He is a righty who would love to be able to make the connection. But sometimes, the truth can not be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/144 "2011-05-12T18:24:05Z")
What makes you think that McCain would love to be able to make the connection?? Did you not know that he’s adamantly opposed to torture, having had it done to him personally during his imprisonment in Vietnam? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/145 "2011-05-12T19:45:15Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > What makes you think that McCain would love to be able to make the connection?? Did you not know that he’s adamantly opposed to torture, having had it done to him personally during his imprisonment in Vietnam? As demonstrated by his support for the Military Commissions Act of 2006, which says that torture and suspension of due process is not permitted…unless the President says it is. What? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/146 "2011-05-12T22:53:34Z")
It also fits into the right wing mantra as the Repubs try to take some of the credit for getting Bin Laden. Bush’s efforts were ineffectual. Torture was not only wrong in law and religion, but it did not work. We tortured people for no gain. Now and forever, America is a country that tortures. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/147 "2011-05-12T23:32:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is trolling. You have picked a topic on which to pretend controversyt and have simply chosen to ignore all evidence against your position while refusing to provide any support for it, yet continuing the “discussion.” > (I realize that you are simply going to pretend, _à la_ Glenn Beck, that you are just seeking an answer that has not been provided, but like Glen Beck’s tirades, that is transparently false.) > If you have actual testimony that torture is a reliable and effective method of garnering information, provide it. > > Otherwise, you will stop it, now. > > [/Moderating] Well, for starters what is and what isn’t “torture” is quite relative. You’ll hear plenty of interrogators claim that “torture” doesn’t work, but what’s really effective are “psychological pressure techniques” or words to that effect. When such “techniques” are described it usually becomes clear that most people on the receiving end would consider it torture and that it probably would violate the Geneva Conventions rules regarding the treatment of POWs. Beyond that, I’m not sure how seriously I can take claims that “torture doesn’t work” when lots of operatives from the KGB, Mossad, ISI, the Gestapo and similar agencies will testify to it’s effectiveness. If it actually “didn’t work” then they wouldn’t have used it. Moreover, if the CIA, NSA, MI6 etc. really didn’t think it worked, then why do they continue accepting information from other agencies obtained via torture. Just because something is immoral doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/148 "2011-05-13T00:08:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Beyond that, I’m not sure how seriously I can take claims that “torture doesn’t work” when lots of operatives from the KGB, Mossad, ISI, the Gestapo and similar agencies will testify to it’s effectiveness. Cite, please? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/149 "2011-05-13T00:15:08Z")
> **[Canada Adds U.S. to List Of Nations That Torture](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/18/AR2008011803346.html)** > > In Canada, the United States has joined a notorious group of countries -- Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Afghanistan and China, among others -- as a place where foreigners risk torture and abuse, according to a training manual for Canadian diplomats that... This is who we are now. Canada put us on a list of countries that will torture you if you are under suspicion. Yep, that is what we have become. You can get information through torture. Whether it is true and useful is another. The prisoner will say whatever he thinks you want to hear to make the pain stop. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/150 "2011-05-13T00:27:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Cite, please? You need a citation to prove that the KGB, the Gestapo and the ISI used torture? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/151 "2011-05-13T00:41:08Z")
> **[FAQs: Does the U.S. Torture People?](https://ccrjustice.org/home/get-involved/tools-resources/fact-sheets-and-faqs/faqs-does-us-torture-people)** > > In the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, which the United States ratified in 1994, torture is defined as "any act by which severe 1991 Interrogators manual 34:52 Experience indicates the use of prohibited techniques is not necessary to gain cooperation from interrogation sources. first. .If someone has information they are just as likely, if not more so, to disclose the information with no abusive tactics. second… Many interrogated do not have the information to give. third… whether or not the person has the information, he or she will confess to anything to make the torture stop. Thus the information received is never reliable. The military knew the facts long ago, but the neocons ignored the rules . They somehow thought they knew better. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/152 "2011-05-13T00:43:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, for starters what is and what isn’t “torture” is quite relative. > > You’ll hear plenty of interrogators claim that “torture” doesn’t work, but what’s really effective are “psychological pressure techniques” or words to that effect. When such “techniques” are described it usually becomes clear that most people on the receiving end would consider it torture and that it probably would violate the Geneva Conventions rules regarding the treatment of POWs. Then it’s not relative at all, is it ? > [@](#): > > Beyond that, I’m not sure how seriously I can take claims that “torture doesn’t work” when lots of operatives from the KGB, Mossad, ISI, the Gestapo and similar agencies will testify to it’s effectiveness. Worked pretty well to make people afraid of getting caught by the KGB and Gestapo, sure. Also as a stress reliever for the torturer, I suppose. You may or may not however be aware that the Gestapo never had much success rooting out the various Resistances, partisan movements or plots against The Moustache, nor was the KGB performance against the Mujahideen stellar. Lost the war, you see. Nor was the Stasi particularly efficient in keeping people from crossing over to the West ; or for that matter were CIA goons very successful at interrogating the Viet Cong through creative use of field telephones. I’m also not 100% sure y’all should be looking up to the Gestapo for behavioural cues. But that’s just me. > [@](#): > > Moreover, if the CIA, NSA, MI6 etc. really didn’t think it worked, then why do they continue accepting information from other agencies obtained via torture. The reports usually do not mention how many rounds of testicle-frying were involved. Besides, what on Earth gave you the idea spy agencies trust each other’s information ? They’re _spies_. Mistrust and disinformation is sort of a given in the biz. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/153 "2011-05-13T00:51:26Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You need a citation to prove that the KGB, the Gestapo and the ISI used torture? That’s not what you claimed, is it? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Beyond that, I’m not sure how seriously I can take claims that “torture doesn’t work” when lots of operatives from the KGB, Mossad, ISI, the Gestapo and similar agencies will testify to it’s effectiveness. Where are the cites that show testimony as to its effectiveness? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/154 "2011-05-13T02:00:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s not what you claimed, is it?Where are the cites that show testimony as to its effectiveness? Are you seriously questioning the idea that the Gestapo wasn’t extremely effective at getting captured members of the French Resistance and captured members of the SOE to spill their guts? I remember reading that most members of the Maquis never managed to stay operational for more than a few days and the major reason was that whenever one was captured they always wound up being broken and giving up the names of everyone they knew. I’ve heard that the same is true of captured British SOE and American OSS members. Do you doubt that? I will freely confess to never having talked to any former torturers, but I’ve met people tortured by SAVAK, the Ayatollah’s version of SAVAK, and at the Hanoi Hilton and one thing they all agreed was that torture was extremely effective. Now, I’m glad that when interrogating members of the Bloods or the Crips that the LAPD doesn’t use the tactics that the Gestapo used to get captured members of the Maquis to roll over on their comrades but does anyone seriously think that the LAPD’s tactics are remotely as successful as the Gestapo’s. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/155 "2011-05-13T02:15:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I will freely confess to never having talked to any former torturers, but I’ve met people tortured by SAVAK, the Ayatollah’s version of SAVAK, and at the Hanoi Hilton and one thing they all agreed was that torture was extremely effective. > > Now, I’m glad that when interrogating members of the Bloods or the Crips that the LAPD doesn’t use the tactics that the Gestapo used to get captured members of the Maquis to roll over on their comrades but does anyone seriously think that the LAPD’s tactics are remotely as successful as the Gestapo’s. A British spy that survived reported in the book “A time to Speak” (Jeanne Manning . Published on 2000, Turner Publishing Company World War, 1939-1945 / Personal narratives) that torture did work for Hitler alright… After much torture his spy group told the Nazis that they knew that the allies were going to land in Holland and Belgium. Not in Normandy. "So the Germans, because they got this through torture, believed this more than anything else. They said, “they wouldn’t have fought for so long to hide this, so it must be true.” I see more evidence that when torture is used by the estate it is a tool for the powerful to get what it wants regardless if it is false. The “effectiveness” that you are talking is the lackeys telling their sorry rulers what they wanted to hear. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/156 "2011-05-13T02:19:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You may or may not however be aware that the Gestapo never had much success rooting out the various Resistances, partisan movements or plots against The Moustache. Really, I remember hearing that the Gestapo was very good at getting captured members of the French, Dutch, Norwegian and other resistance groups to talk. Where’ve you heard otherwise? Certainly it seems to me that he Gestapo was far more successful at getting members of the Maquis, SOE, and the OSS to spill their guts than the British were ever at getting captured members of the IRA to give up their fellow boyos which wouldn’t make much sense if “normal interrogation techniques” were more effective. > [@](#): > > nor was the KGB performance against the Mujahideen stellar. Lost the war, you see. This is a rather peculiar comment. I don’t think the KGB actually did any torturing in that war. I believe it was done by the GRU who quite jealously guarded their territory. Such a comment doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in your knowledge of the subject or your competence to judge the effectiveness of torture. I don’t know how successful they were in getting members of the Mujahideen to roll over but I’ve never heard anyone dispute the fact that the KGB did a good job at getting captured spies and dissidents to give up their fellow spies and collaborators. > [@](#): > > Nor was the Stasi particularly efficient in keeping people from crossing over to the West ; That’s not a particularly useful comment. When comparing the effectiveness of Stasi techniques to that of “normal interrogation techniques” the question is how effective were they at getting captured dissidents to rat out other dissidents. I’ve never heard anyone suggest they weren’t and most people seem to agree that they were clearly quite effective. > [@](#): > > The reports usually do not mention how many rounds of testicle-frying were involved Huh? No, intelligence reports from the ISI, and the Egyptian and Jordanian equivalents don’t go into details about about exactly what is done to suspects who are “interviewed” but when an ISI report mentions intelligence gleaned from a “captured Al Quaeda operative” everyone knows what happened to the operative and what was done to make him talk. > [@](#): > > I’m also not 100% sure y’all should be looking up to the Gestapo for behavioural cues. But that’s just me. Considering the fact that I made it clear in my post that I found torture immoral that’s an extremely foolish comment. Anyway, like I said I’ve met people who were on the wrong side of being tortured and all freely admitted that they spilled their guts and that it was extremely effective. Now perhaps you think that Chicago PD does a better job at getting captured members of the Vice Lords(or whatever the dominant gang in Chicago is) to roll over on their fellow gang members than the Gestapo did at getting captured members of the Maquis to give up fellow Maquis members, but I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/157 "2011-05-13T02:20:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Really, I remember hearing that the Gestapo was very good at getting captured members of the French, Dutch, Norwegian and other resistance groups to talk. > > Where’ve you heard otherwise? I already mentioned, but you are continuing to ignore it. Historically speaking one just needs to remember how torture got many to confess in the past that they had a deal with the devil or they lied on their conversion to Christianity. Those inquisitors can tell you that indeed torture was effective on getting the belongings of the tortured to the church. Of course, we all know that the tortured were not telling the truth, but the inquisitors will tell you that they were effective. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/158 "2011-05-13T02:35:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Really, I remember hearing that the Gestapo was very good at getting captured members of the French, Dutch, Norwegian and other resistance groups to talk. Would you happen to remember where the cites are that will back up your multiple claims of the effectiveness of torture to get accurate information? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/159 "2011-05-13T02:36:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I already mentioned, but you are continuing to ignore it. Historically speaking one just needs to remember how torture got many to confess in the past that they had a deal with the devil or they lied on their conversion to Christianity. Those inquisitors can tell you that indeed torture was effective on getting the belongings of the tortured to the church. > > Of course, we all know that the tortured were not telling the truth, but the inquisitors will tell you that they were effective. And you are illustrating Ibn Warraq’s point. You lump all sorts of stuff into “torture” and then believe that “torture doesn’t work.” But the stuff done by the Spanish Inquisition etc. is much much different than the enhanced interrogation techniques the US has used against terror suspects. But you don’t care, it’s all “torture” to you, so anything you read saying “torture doesn’t work” you count as a point in your favor. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487/160 "2011-05-13T02:41:07Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > And you are illustrating Ibn Warraq’s point. You lump all sorts of stuff into “torture” and then believe that “torture doesn’t work.” On the contrary, I’m granting that it could work, but it automatically poisons the well of information. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > But the stuff done by the Spanish Inquisition etc. is much much different than the enhanced interrogation techniques the US has used against terror suspects. But you don’t care, it’s all “torture” to you, so anything you read saying “torture doesn’t work” you count as a point in your favor. Sure, much different.. [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834) > [@](#): > > The Washington debate over the simulated-drowning technique may be new, but the practice is not. It predates the Inquisition and has been used, off and on, around the world ever since. > > Its use was first documented in the 14th century, according to Ed Peters, a historian at the University of Pennsylvania. It was known variously as “water torture,” the “water cure” or tormenta de toca — a phrase that refers to the thin piece of cloth placed over the victim’s mouth. Very effective to get the goods for the Church… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-waterboarding-help-kill-bin-laden/580487.md?page=9)