It’s really not that big of a deal, and I don’t think they are being jerks. I had just been wondering if there was a connection between our being unable to attend the baptism and the (apparent) sudden cooling-off afterward, that’s all.
If there is, adults should man up and tell you. You are not being a jerk by trying to figure out why your child is being hurt. If it was you, maybe you could ignore it, but do it for your kid so there’s an explanation. The only ones being a jerk are the Mormon couple, who thinks that suddenly withdrawing a child’s friends isn’t a dickish thing to do. Even if they may have good reasons, they went about it the wrong way. So I would keep calling, keep leaving messages, and even try to bump into them to ask for an explanation.
An explanation is simple, concise, and doesn’t take a whole lot of effort on their part. It is the LEAST they owe your kid. It is absolutely not impolite or pushy to demand one.
Nope. I don’t remember what soda it was, but I bought it from a church-owned vending machine inside a church building, so it is unlikely that it had caffeine. Also, it was in Utah where caffeine is not such a big deal.
I mentioned it to my friends later, and they were shocked that I didn’t know that “we don’t handle money on Sundays”.
I’m pretty sure that you weren’t invited to a Christening, not a word that an LDS person would ever use, I’m guessing it was a baptism. I am not aware of any LDS person who would become offended that you didn’t attend a baptism, although important in the child’s life I would never expect a non-member to attend one (I can see you getting an invitation just not being expected to come) although recently my niece had one and people traveled from different states to attend so that should indicate how important it is.
I might suggest that you get together with the other parents and try and find out what the problem is. The behavior strikes me as very odd and there may be some issue which you’re not aware of.
Funny thing is in the Mission Training Center (Brazil) we were specifically told that purchasing things from a vending machine on Sunday was fine.
I can understand not handling money in context of doing business on Sunday especially at church. Like for example you bought some pigs from your neighbor but haven’t been able to pay them yet and you see them at church. I wouldn’t consider that a good time to settle up.
That being said if I couldn’t handle money on Sunday it might make giving donations more difficult particularly fast offering.
There’s no proscription against caffeinated drinks. Of course, there are a number of church members who have decided for themselves not to drink those, but that’s not church doctrine.
Agreed. I said above that the taboo on handling money was unofficial. Clearly it is kosher to donate money to the church on Sunday. And I should point out that if the missionary trainees needed to be “specifically told that purchasing things from a vending machine on Sunday was fine”, then that reinforces my claim that there is a cultural (but unofficial) taboo against it.
The proscription is regional, and open to interpretation, and we can each find a dozen cites demonstrating that caffeine is/isn’t forbidden. I could argue that Gordon B Hinkley told Mike Wallace in the '90s that a defining characteristic of LDS youth is that “they abstain from caffeinated sodas”, and you could counter with a quote from LDS Newsroom in 2012 stating that “caffeine was never prohibited, and the only reason Diet Coke was never served at BYU games is that no one ever asked for one.” (I’m paraphrasing, of course.)
I grew up LDS mostly outside of Utah. I was not allowed to have caffeine, and neither were any of my LDS friends. I saw a Mormon kid drink a Mountain Dew (gasp!!) in Louisiana, and the awful image is still seared into my retina. And then I moved back to Salt Lake County as a teen, and was confused to see like 90% of Mormon kids drinking Coke.
Amusing anecdote: There was a Stake President in Tahiti who would refuse to issue a temple recommend to people who drank caffeine. So the president of the adjacent stake countered by always sipping a Coke during worthiness interviews.
I never knew there was so much controversy over caffeine! My knowledge comes from the part of Book of Mormon, where a latte is tempting one of the missionaries in a dream depicting Mormon hell.
Ignorance fought.
A latte is a different matter. LDS scripture advises against “hot drinks”. This “word of wisdom” has evolved into a commandment, and “hot drinks” has evolved into coffee and tea. It doesn’t matter if it’s hot or cold, and decaf is also severely frowned upon (at least in my experience). Some herbal teas are open for interpretation. But latte is evil.
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I grew up Mormon and we were not allowed to have activities such as swimming on Sundays. The rules were pretty arbitrary. A family in the same congregation had a trampoline and allowed their children to play on it, which we weren’t allowed, but their kids couldn’t play board games. Go figure.
Ooops. You get dinged on your Mormon doctrine cred scale.
It’s canonized in Section 61 of the Doctrine and Covenants, modern revelation mostly to Joseph Smith.
Smith and company were on an extensive trip back from traveling to Independence, Missouri and since they were poor at that point in time, they were traveling by canoe. Smith got a revelation that Satan ruled the waters and he and his two key lieutenants were to travel by land (e.g. by coach) while the others were to continue the arduous journey by water.
For salamanders, that was indeed that was the invention of Mark Hoffman, the forger who conned the church into forking out hundreds of thousands of dollars directly and through members to quietly buy up what were thought to be embarrassing documents and burying them into church vaults. However, Hoffman would leak their existence which would force the church to go public with them.
The salamander letter was purported to be from Marin Harris, one of the key figures in early Mormon history.
Smith was involved in folk magic, using a “seer stone” and elaborate night time ceremonies and ritual slaughter of animals to look for buried treasure. The translation of the Book of Mormon evolved out of those activities.
Hoffman tied the two together with the forgery, which should have clearly embarrassed the church, but at the time LDS apostles attempted to explain away the wording by saying that salamanders were an analogy for angels.
Despite making a killing selling the forgeries, Hoffman went on to get over his head financially. He finally resorted to murdering a couple of people in an attempt to get out of a financial crisis and blew himself not-quite-up. Brent Metchalf, a business associate and friend of Hoffman, (and a childhood acquaintance of mine) was one of the two possible targets for the third bomb, the one which injured Hoffman.
Hoffman was convicted of murder in a plea bargain deal which many people was influenced by the LDS church desire to not have its dirty laundry aired in public.
That can’t be right, aren’t they called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latte Day Saints?
To my Methodist ears, having a vending machine in a church building sounds strange. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one around a church.
The former stake president wasn’t following the guidelines for issuing a temple recommend; the latter one is a card! (Sorry about the puns.)
The only vending machines I’ve ever seen in an LDS Church owned building have been in the small dining rooms in the temples in Seoul and Hog Kong. As the temples are not open on Sundays, there would be no issue with "handling money on the Sabbath. I wouldn’t be surprised, though, that there would be vending machines in buildings such as the church office building, but I’ve never seen a machine in a chapel.
I agree on both points. I brought it up only as an anecdote illustrating that the prohibition of caffeine is more regional than doctrinal. Which parallels with the idea that various Sunday prohibitions are also more cultural than doctrinal. Both are really more about how holier-than-thou a Mormon wants to present himself, rather than a clearly defined church policy.
It was a regular LDS meetinghouse building that was also used as a community college’s LDS Institute of Religion building. To get from the chapel to the Sunday school classrooms, you walk through a lounge area with a foosball table, a pool table, and vending machines. There were often “fireside” gatherings for young adults on Sunday evenings.
They’re usually right next to the money-changing machines.
Only place I’ve seen them is in buildings that weren’t full time churches, such as institutes (places where they have classes for Mormon youth 18-30 usually located on college campuses) or missionary training centers (where you can spend up to 2 months living inside of with minimal outside time)
I’d agree that defining Mormon doctrine is like nailing jello to the wall. Far more important issues were called doctrine at some point an then policies afterward.
When I went on my mission all missionaries worldwide were prohibited from drinking caffeinated beverages, so there was some basis for the interpretation.
Hey Rhodes, just wanted to make sure you got that my earlier comment was a joke, reading it later it sounds more snarky than I intended.
I would be a bit wary of just assuming that it’s all people trying to be holier-than-thou. Especially on the subject of Sunday avoidances most are following a tradition that their parents taught them. Also can you honestly say that watching football, or most other TV programs, helps to uplift and maintain a good spirit for the Sabbath? According to President Kimble it is — "a day on which to read good books, a day to contemplate and ponder, … a day to study the scriptures and to prepare sermons, a day to nap and rest and relax, a day to visit the sick, a day to preach the gospel, a day to proselyte, a day to visit quietly with the family and get acquainted with our children, a day for proper courting, a day to do good, a day to drink at the fountain of knowledge and of instruction, a day to seek forgiveness of our sins, a day for the enrichment of our spirit and our soul, a day to restore us to our spiritual stature, a day to partake of the emblems of his sacrifice and atonement, a day to contemplate the glories of the gospel and of the eternal realms, a day to climb high on the upward path toward our Heavenly Father”
I wouldn’t call anyone who was honestly trying to do these things just trying to be “holier than thou”
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Hey Rhodes, just wanted to make sure you got that my earlier comment was a joke, reading it later it sounds more snarky than I intended.
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It’s all good. I read it as a joke.
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I wouldn’t call anyone who was honestly trying to do these things just trying to be “holier than thou”
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Just a difference of opinion, I guess. When someone can’t celebrate a gentile kid’s birthday because they have to spend the entire day “drinking at the fountain of knowledge and of instruction,” it rubs me as more pretentious than sincere. When someone is shamed into drinking from a foul-tasting drinking fountain because he doesn’t want to be seen buying a Sprite from a machine on the Lord’s Day, it’s not about worship; it’s about maintaining the image of a good Mormon boy. Has nothing to do with “climbing high on the upward path toward our Heavenly Father,” IMHO.