# Did we just win the gay marriage issue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 26, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329 "2004-10-26T23:26:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/21 "2004-10-27T17:01:02Z")
I think you might have the wrong John, John. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/22 "2004-10-27T17:47:47Z")
I used the word “endorsed” to indicate acceptance and approval, not leading the battle charge. As for a cite- > **[Reuters says Bush Open on Gay Marriage. I say they are completely missing...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=230675)** > > From http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Relationships/reuters20031216\_612.: Exsqueeze me, Reuters, but how do you arrive at the conclusion that Bush is riding any lines at all? The way I read it, he’s clearly and unequivocally against gay marriage, and is... ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/23 "2004-10-27T18:13:10Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] I think you might have the wrong John, John.[/QUOTE Oh, neVER mind… ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/24 "2004-10-27T18:41:58Z")
To me, he seems to be saying the same thing that most other politicians are saying on the matter, “I’m against same sex marriages, but if the states want to allow some kind of civil union arrangement, that’s OK with me.” This brings up the very obvious question of what the difference is between marriage and civil unions. Did Charles Gibson ask him that? No. He felt it was more important to go off in some wonkish direction about the Republican platform, and let Bush slither away. Jon Stewart is right. The media is failing us. But back to the OP. I think what we are seeing is the beginning of the end of the gay marriage ban. Some sort of same sex civil union contract will be allowed, gays and lesbians will start referring to themselves as married, the world as we know it won’t come unraveled, and after a while the moderates and medium right will say “Oh, screw it. Let 'em marry.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/25 "2004-10-27T18:49:33Z")
> [@The Cited Article in the NYT](#): > > Mr. Bush said, “I don’t think **we** should deny people rights to a civil union, a legal arrangement, **if that’s what a state chooses to do so**.” Emphasis added. I took the “we” to refer to the federal government. IOW, “marriage” is to refer exclusively to the union of one man and one woman beyond the prescribed degrees of consanguinity. But the decision as to whether or not to extend a legal arrangement like “civil union” to same-sex couples is left up to the states - the Supreme Court will not try either to impose it, or forbid it. Seems reasonable to me. And no change at all from his previous position. And not all that different from Kerry. The only difference, of course, is that one is a slimy, disgusting homophobic liar and hypocrite. The other is married to Laura Bush. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/26 "2004-10-27T19:18:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And no change at all from his previous position. And not all that different from Kerry. Indeed, I had meant to say in my post “he seems to be saying the same thing that most other politicians \*\*- including John Kerry - \*\* are saying on the matter…” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/27 "2004-10-27T19:36:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But the decision as to whether or not to extend a legal arrangement like “civil union” to same-sex couples is left up to the states - the Supreme Court will not try either to impose it, or forbid it. > > Seems reasonable to me. Other than the part about codifying separate-but-(therefore inherently un)equal status to some of us, perhaps. > [@](#): > > And not all that different from Kerry. The only difference, of course, is that one is a slimy, disgusting homophobic liar and hypocrite. I presume you mean the one who advocates writing discrimination into the Constitution > [@](#): > > The other is married to Laura Bush. Oh yeah, I almost forgot that was a **Shodan** post. Thanks for the reminder. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/28 "2004-10-27T20:47:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Other than the part about codifying separate-but-(therefore inherently un)equal status to some of us, perhaps. > > I presume you mean the one who advocates writing discrimination into the Constitution So you didn’t actually read the post, then. And have nothing of substance to add. Color me not-surprised. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/29 "2004-10-27T20:55:08Z")
I read your post, **Shodan**. Is it your contention that Bush did not endorse the FMA. which would have banned “civil unions”? Do you believe that, if Bush gets elected this time, he and the GOP-run congress would allow a state to legalize same-sex civil unions? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/30 "2004-10-27T21:03:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you didn’t actually read the post, then. And have nothing of substance to add. > > Color me not-surprised. You’ve characterized your posts in the last four years quite well, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/31 "2004-10-27T21:13:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > IOW, “marriage” is to refer exclusively to the union of one man and one woman beyond the prescribed degrees of consanguinity. But the decision as to whether or not to extend a legal arrangement like “civil union” to same-sex couples is left up to the states - the Supreme Court will not try either to impose it, or forbid it. You might review the text of the proposed FMA on which Mr. Bush was commenting when he endorsed it – it certainly could easily be construed to ban civil unions. > [@](#): > > And not all that different from Kerry. The only difference, of course, is that one is a slimy, disgusting homophobic liar and hypocrite. > > The other is married to Laura Bush. I hadn’t realized that Kerry and Laura had committed bigamy! :dubious: 😛 ---
**Author:** ![jeevmon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@jeevmon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeevmon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/32 "2004-10-27T21:16:39Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > There really isn’t a way to deny at least some level of civil union at the state level. Too much of it is just standard contractual agreement between two people about assets, power of attorney, etc. Unfortunately, that’s simply not the case. Ohio, for example, is on the verge of enacting an amendment providing that: > [@](#): > > This state and its political subdivisions shall not create or recognize a legal status for relationships of unmarried individuals that intends to approximate the design, qualities, significance or effect of marriage. This text can be readily interpreted as preventing a court from recognizing or enforcing documents between same sex partners that intend to approximate the design, qualities, significance or effect (i.e. rights) of marriage. That’s why even the Republican governor of Ohio is against it. And, in case anyone thinks that civil unions are a compromise that would be acceptable to the people behind this amendment, please read the comments on civil unions in [this article](http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4576919,00.html?gusrc=ticker-103704). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/33 "2004-10-27T22:09:20Z")
> [@jeevmon](#): > > Unfortunately, that’s simply not the case. Ohio, for example, is on the verge of enacting an amendment providing that: I think any state that tries to deny civil union arrangements of any kind will find that law or state constitutional amendment overturned by the SCotUS. The fight might be over what specifically can be included in a civil union, but that’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/34 "2004-10-28T12:09:18Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Do you believe that, if Bush gets elected this time, he and the GOP-run congress would allow a state to legalize same-sex civil unions? Yes. Do you believe that, if Kerry gets elected this time, he would allow a state to ban same-sex civil unions? Kerry is on record as stating that he opposes gay marriage. Bush is on record as stating that he opposes gay marriage. Kerry is on record as stating that he supports allowing states to implement same-sex civil unions. Bush is on record as stating that he supports allowing states to implement same-sex civil unions. Many Dopers are on record that they are given to hysterical rants against a candidate who takes the above positions. Except if it’s not Bush. _:shrugs:_ See you all after the election. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/35 "2004-10-28T13:38:38Z")
What part of “Constitutional Amendment” don’t you understand? Or “Separate But Equal”? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/36 "2004-10-28T15:07:20Z")
This is Shodan. If it doesn’t fit his argument, it doesn’t get mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/37 "2004-10-28T15:18:49Z")
Perhaps Shodan wishes to make an argument of his own. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/38 "2004-10-28T16:59:15Z")
Perhaps, but abscence of argument is not evidence of argument. ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/39 "2004-10-28T17:20:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > YKerry is on record as stating that he opposes gay marriage. Bush is on record as stating that he opposes gay marriage. Kerry is on record as stating that he supports allowing states to implement same-sex civil unions. Bush is on record as stating that he supports allowing states to implement same-sex civil unions. Actually, Kerry is on record as stating that he thinks marriage is between one man and one woman, but he doesn’t think that’s the federal government’s decision to make. Bush is on record as stating that he thinks marriage is between one man and one woman, and that should be written into the Constitution. I think they’re both very much in the wrong on the issue, but Kerry’s position is clearly the lesser of two evils. Personally, if society wants to pretend that churches have a monopoly on the term “marriage” (and only those churches which use it to mean “the union of one man and one woman”), I, an atheist straight man, want no part of such a hate-filled word, and will seek a civil union if the time ever comes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329/40 "2004-10-28T17:26:39Z")
> [@Jon the Geek](#): > > Actually, Kerry is on record as stating that he thinks marriage is between one man and one woman, but he doesn’t think that’s the federal government’s decision to make. Bush is on record as stating that he thinks marriage is between one man and one woman, and that should be written into the Constitution. I think they’re both very much in the wrong on the issue, but Kerry’s position is clearly the lesser of two evils. You left out one key point, although it doesn’t necesarily change your conclusion. Kerry thinks prohibition of SSM should be written into the state constitution of MA, and one must also assume that he would think the same of any other state he was resident of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-we-just-win-the-gay-marriage-issue/271329.md?page=3)