# Did you see the NYT Article on Yeshivas? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 12, 2022, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424 "2022-09-12T09:16:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/21 "2022-09-12T13:55:04Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > But it’s also not the case that NYC politicians ignore the issues because they fear losing the votes of non-Hasidic Jews - it’s because the Hasids have disproportionate political power because of their voting patterns and overall low voter turnout. While the second part is certainly true, how sure are you that the first part is? I think some non-Hasidic Jews who weren’t well informed about how badly these schools are doing might see such a move as anti-semitic, and even if it’s not a large number, most politicians would still be afraid of any charge of anti-semitism. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > This issue can be solely addressed on educational and political grounds. How do you propose to do it? While it may not be the job of the majority to call out the fringe, if some of us did, it might encourage the pols to act. I don’t happen to see that as an issue of dual loyalty, but as a possible way to overcome a political logjam. What are the potential solutions you see? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/22 "2022-09-12T13:56:19Z")
My impressions from the Times article: 1. Hasidic schools are a disgrace when it comes to “secular” subjects needed for a decent education 2. NYC public schools, while supposedly “exponentially” better, are still lousy, with most students performing below grade level in reading and math 3. it would’ve been interesting to see a comparison between Hasidic schools and other religious schools in New York, particularly those with a fundamentalist bent. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > Yeah, really it is not the responsibility of “mainstream Jews(/Muslims/Blacks/Latinos/Feminists)” to call out, and give the rest of society cover to go after, the extreme fringe. On the contrary, I think it’s fair to judge _all_ groups, including professionals like physicians and lawyers, on how (and whether) they respond to bad acts by a minority of their members. I’m curious why Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi “follows” an Orthodox (Jewish) site. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/23 "2022-09-12T14:03:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Truly depressing. **These schools are failing to equip their students with the tools they need to function in 21st century society,** and their backers are so institutionally powerful that it seems that nobody has the ability to make them do better. I was particularly moved by the story of the runaway who learned English from Dr. Seuss at age 28. = I’m inclined to think they don’t _want_ to function in a 21st century society. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/24 "2022-09-12T14:07:40Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Private schools, religious or not, should not receive public funding. I’m with you 100%. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/25 "2022-09-12T14:08:29Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > I think some non-Hasids who weren’t well informed about how badly these schools are doing might see such a move as anti-semitic, and even if it’s not a large number, most politicians would still be afraid of any charge of anti-semitism. I’m not at all sure it’s possible for non-Hasidic Jews in NYC to be unaware of the issues with the schools - they have been widely publicized in the media for as long as I can remember. And they won’t see action taken against these yeshivas as anti-Semitic because there are many Jewish day schools in New York, even Modern Orthodox ones , that provide an adequate secular education in addition to a religious education. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/26 "2022-09-12T14:11:00Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > What are the potential solutions you see? > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Private schools, religious or not, should not receive public funding. Here you go. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/27 "2022-09-12T14:12:37Z")
I ceraintly agree with that. How do we take away the funding from these politically powerful Hasids? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/28 "2022-09-12T14:15:31Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > I ceraintly agree with that. How do we take away the funding from these politically powerful Hasids? - Grow a pair? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/29 "2022-09-12T14:17:12Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > How do we take away the funding from these politically powerful Hasids? Stripping public money from private schools is not an issue with “these politically powerful Hasids.” The Archdiocese of New York is certainly more influential and is certainly just as good at paperwork as the Hasidim are. Any entity that wants to give its community a religious education should do so with its own money. Any entity that wants to give its community a secular education with public money can do so as a charter school, subject to the same oversight as any other public school. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/30 "2022-09-12T14:17:40Z")
I already have a pair, thanks. We’re talking about politicians here, so let’s try to limit ourselves to real-world possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/31 "2022-09-12T14:18:59Z")
If I understood the article correctly, the public funding was an attempt to control the schools to some extent: by accepting these funds, you agree to conform to certain standards. To run your own private school system without political interference, you cannot accept any public funding. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/32 "2022-09-12T14:25:16Z")
A majority on the Supreme Court unfortunately seem to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/33 "2022-09-12T14:56:51Z")
Right. The yeshivas are an egregious example of what happens when you let an insular religious community run schools without oversight, but what they’re ultimately doing is gaming a system that was **designed** to support private religious schools with public money. It’s also worth pointing out that a great deal of the money isn’t actually educational. They’re getting quite a lot from programs designed to aid economically disadvantaged kids, such as with the childcare vouchers and meal subsidies. I don’t know how the Hasidim managed get a third of the available childcare voucher money, as the article says, but I expect it comes back to the “really good at paperwork” thing. There does seem to be some fraud involved (taking money for internet services when the schools forbid the internet) and stuff that _seems_ like fraud (using aid money to buy from their own retailers) but which I’m unqualified to comment on. I’d be thrilled to see these schools shut down - the Hasidim in NY are doing their kids a massive, tragic disservice. But I don’t see any way to do it without dismantling the way **all** private schools get public monies. I’d be even more thrilled to see that happen, but it’s even less likely. I’m sure the other religious educational institutions are happy to keep waaaay back on the sidelines and let the yeshivas be a lightning rod, but if the state or federal government ever started making noises about stripping that money away, they’d get real loud real fast. And this is an absolute WAG of the waggiest variety, but I’d bet a thousand quatloos that systems like these are viewed as a desirable end-game by plenty of xtian fundamentalists. Imagine what would happen if the hardcore evangelicals of the world were able to group together with similar levels of civic organization and political wherewithal. It’s fucking terrifying and probably only a matter of time. The only saving grace of the Hasidim is that they want to be left alone. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/34 "2022-09-12T15:05:39Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > The only saving grace of the Hasidim is that they want to be left alone. - Then we should do that. _Completely_(barring violations of the law). ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/35 "2022-09-12T15:39:18Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’m curious why Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi “follows” an Orthodox (Jewish) site. I follow a lot of sites. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/36 "2022-09-12T15:41:31Z")
The comments here have helped me noddle this out. We can require all children to attend school. Religious minorities can run whatever sort of schools they like on their own dime. But if these insitutions do not teach reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic then they do not count as schools under the law. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/37 "2022-09-12T15:46:27Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Grow a pair? Get kicked out of office and replaced with politicians that will do what they are told. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/38 "2022-09-12T15:48:14Z")
If you cannot change the rules so that they only pertain to non-Christian schools then it won’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2022, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/39 "2022-09-13T00:40:44Z")
I read the article and was very disturbed. Not every Orthodox Jew, even ones who went to a yeshiva is so badly educated. The one who was my post-doc and whose wife was an MD certainly was not. There are, as I see it, two issues. First is the public funding. That should certainly be eliminated. But my impression is that a lot of it comes as aid to poor children. The second, and more important is that education is compulsory for everyone and these kids are not getting any. The article mentioned one school as to try to forbid parents to speak English at home. One guy said he could add and subtract but didn’t know how to multiply or divide. This is compulsory miseducation. I don’t think the Jewish community in general is in any way in favor of this and will not view cracking down on it as anti-semitism. Another point is corporal punishment. It is apparently legal in private schools. This must end and the ban must be enforced. With jail terms if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2022, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/40 "2022-09-13T03:05:38Z")
The New York Times is reporting that its article has had an effect. > **[New York Lawmakers Call for More Oversight of Hasidic Schools (Published 2022)](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/12/nyregion/lawmakers-hasidic-schools.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuonUktbfqYhkQVUaASbTTMIqoRyBg7_LyaM5j3zzNjPQST9ZzugUCM2b8EfKYq54Idsv2jDRDPlwDIgSft0ghOlOIx4qDACyvpqPnJlCKClvoI--UDJz1puRUfVl_WK7Kzi0JLs6yeTl5RjbazHoUPHfwmRhcFg-2eZtclCo2HUNxanXQKUiipQlg6BXVt0tTiwAZSKKo_DjFx1_XdyGZRzb4QEwMPpLDXCRxZXPruJdL3gBTA7OX3h94m0j6dNDO91xPa33KhIoeMeWkqx-CEcik4am2wLUof1URkoz)** > > After a New York Times investigation found that many of the private religious schools denied students a basic education, top officials voiced serious concerns. > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > First is the public funding. That should certainly be eliminated. But my impression is that a lot of it comes as aid to poor children. The problem is that the Hasids are _intentionally_ keeping the students poor and miseducated to keep them from leaving the community. The boys are being raised to be able to do nothing except study Torah, and the girls are getting a slightly better education so they can do menial jobs that will earn just enough to support their unemployed husbands. This is not hyperbole or exaggeration. I strongly agree that no private school, religious or not, should get a dime of public funding. The right wing has been working hard for decades to siphon off public money to support religious schools, contrary to the Establishment Clause. This enriches those schools, of course, but also has the “advantage,” from their point of view, of weakening public schools, which they see as an enemy, because if run properly, they can teach people to think for themselves. This is anathema to fundamentalists and authoritarians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424.md?page=3)