# Did you see the NYT Article on Yeshivas? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 12, 2022, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424 "2022-09-12T09:16:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/101 "2022-09-15T10:36:09Z")
Isn’t there a story in the Talmud(?) where these two wealthy and prestigious rabbis are standing around discussing lofty subjects, when this working-class guy, a mere merchant, accosts them and starts pestering them with questions… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/102 "2022-09-15T10:51:25Z")
There’s a Talmud story I had related to me long ago that I think perfectly sums up the nature of Torah study, and I’m definitely paraphrasing the hell out of it, but it goes something like this; A group of six rabbis are debating whether it is permissible on the Sabbath to relight a fire that has gone out with the embers from a different fire. Five of the rabbis believe that it is not, while Rabbi Eliezer, who is known for his stubbornness, says that it is. Rabbi Nathan, the oldest and wisest of the group, attempts to reason with Rabbi Eliezer. “Give it up, Eliezer,” he says. “The vote is five to one! You cannot possibly expect to change all of our minds!” Rabbi Eliezer, however, refuses, and says “I know I’m right, and may God Himself tell you so!” Just then, a thunderclap issues forth, the skies part, and a beam of light radiates down onto the assembled rabbis, and the voice of God echoes across the heavens, proclaiming “ **RABBI ELIEZER IS RIGHT. RABBI ELIEZER IS ALWAYS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING.** ” The other five rabbis are quite taken aback. They fall into a huddle and converse among themselves for a moment. Rabbi Nathan turns around, faces Rabbi Eliezer, and says “Alright, Eliezer… the vote is five to two.” ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/103 "2022-09-15T13:05:35Z")
I suspect this thread has run its course. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/104 "2022-09-15T13:05:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The other five rabbis are quite taken aback. They fall into a huddle and converse among themselves for a moment. Rabbi Nathan turns around, faces Rabbi Eliezer, and says “Alright, Eliezer… the vote is five to two.” The only meaningful difference between that and the talmudic story is the punchline about the votes. In the story, the rabbis tell God to mind his own business because he has no standing to interfere in earthly interpretation of the law. God concedes the point and goes on about his business. But the punchline makes for a much funnier joke, and it’s one of my favorites. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/105 "2022-09-15T13:25:53Z")
The way I’ve heard it, God says something like, “My children have defeated me.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/106 "2022-09-15T14:17:49Z")
For the sake of completeness, the story is the [Oven of Akhnai](https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.59b.2?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en). ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/107 "2022-09-15T14:38:05Z")
Reading that passage, or most of it, makes it clear why it takes a lifetime of study to understand… ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/108 "2022-09-15T16:35:29Z")
I like the bit about ‘A carob tree is not an acceptable cite!’ ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/109 "2022-09-15T18:08:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I can certainly admire a people who believe that they made an eternal and unalterable contract with God and have spent the 3,000 years since then trying to find the loopholes in it. Well, better than those who say God’s majesty and power is beyond understanding, but here is exactly what He thinks about your sex life. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/110 "2022-09-15T18:24:23Z")
But I was a bit shocked to see “the (literal) word of God is not an acceptable cite!” ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/111 "2022-09-15T18:36:22Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I like the bit about ‘A carob tree is not an acceptable cite!’ Rabbi Eliezer needs to learn not to feed the trolls. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/112 "2022-09-15T18:37:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I can certainly admire a people who believe that they made an eternal and unalterable contract with God and have spent the 3,000 years since then trying to find the loopholes in it. …while also finding ways to impose restrictions above and beyond the ones in the Bible. > **[Chumra (Judaism)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumra_(Judaism))** > > A chumra (Hebrew: חומרה; pl. חומרות chumrot; alternative transliteration: khumra) is a prohibition or obligation in Jewish practice that exceeds the bare requirements of Halakha (Jewish law). One who imposes a chumra on oneself in a given instance is said to be machmir (.mw-parser-output .script-hebrew,.mw-parser-output .script-Hebr{font-family:"Ezra SIL SR","Ezra SIL","SBL Hebrew","Taamey Frank CLM","SBL BibLit","Taamey Ashkenaz","Frank Ruehl CLM","Keter Aram Tsova","Taamey David CLM","Keter YG"... ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/113 "2022-09-15T21:38:26Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I (before this thread) would have thought that was already the case, but apparently not? Either way, there is also the matter of enforcement. Yep, failed tests and not enforced to pass tests to get the dosh. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/114 "2022-09-15T22:32:56Z")
> [@carnut](#): > > It’s the corporal punishment that really makes the school shitty. Corporal punishment is still a thing. In 2009 I was in public middle school and school policy required the principal to approve any paddling, but yeah. It was a thing that happened. If you thought corporal punishment had been relegated to this country’s history, you’ve been living in a bubble. This is a map [from Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States) captioned, “Legality of corporal punishment in _public_ schools in the United States as of October 2018”. Blue means illegal, red means legal. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States.svg/400px-Corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States.svg.png) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States.svg/400px-Corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States.svg.png) From the same source (Wikipedia): Iowa and New Jersey are the only U.S. states which ban corporal punishment in _private_ schools. In 2011-2012, one in eight students attended a school which permitted corporal punishment. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/115 "2022-09-15T22:39:50Z")
I suspect that even in those states where school corporal punishment remains legal, it is uncommon. In [Kentucky](https://wfpl.org/kentucky-board-of-education-limits-corporal-punishment-in-schools/) according to the state board of education: “156 districts have policies that ban corporal punishment. Four districts have policies that allow the practice under certain guidelines, and 11 districts have no clear policy.” There are also numerous state-mandated restrictions on its use where still practiced. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/116 "2022-09-15T22:40:21Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Education is NOT incompatible with being a highly orthodox Jew. Except in a few backward, nasty little enclaves. Nitpick: This may not be such a tiny minority as terms like “few” and “little” make it sound. AFAICT, [about 10% of all American Jews are Orthodox, and over 60% of all those Orthodox American Jews are Haredi,](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/08/26/a-portrait-of-american-orthodox-jews/) sometimes called “Ultra-Orthodox”. So that’s more than 1 in 18 American Jews who identify as Haredi. I don’t know exactly what percentage of American Haredi Jews are involved in the sort of anti-modernity self-segregation on the public dime described in the OP’s linked article. but AFAICT [it seems to be well over half.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism#United_States) So that’s what, more than about 1 in 30 American Jews who belong to these “few” “little” enclaves. In absolute numbers that’s still very small, of course. But in absolute numbers, the Christian fundamentalist “Quiverfull” movement is also pretty small, on the order of 100,000 people among about 170 million American Christians? Fewer than 1 in 2000 American Christians are Quiverfull, by that reckoning. Yet secular media treat that movement (rightly, IMHO) as a newsworthy and concerning trend in oppressive American religious fundamentalism. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/117 "2022-09-15T22:47:19Z")
Yeah, corporal punishment when I was in middle school was rare. It generated a lot of chatter when it did happen. Contrast with my father’s education, where he says the nuns would casually whip you with the measuring stick for bad behavior, right then and there in the middle of class. The New York Times reports that the Hasidic schools “regularly” employ corporal punishment. I read that as more like the nuns in my father’s day than the experience I had in public schools of 2009, where a kid might get paddled after starting a fight or being particularly cruel. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2022, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/118 "2022-09-16T00:51:05Z")
My initial take on the article was a strong resemblance to the late nineteenth century’s political machines. Especially when the NYT reports the schools sending pre-filled sample ballots home with students, and rewarding students who bring back “I voted” stickers with an exclusive field trip. I think it’s more useful to think in terms of a political entity than a religious “cult” as **Princhester** suggests. There’s a significant language barrier that can’t be dismissed with a comparison to “public schools that […] overwhelmingly enrolled nonnative English speakers”. Children in a Hasidic enclave are not comparable to children in Queens who attend a primarily Spanish-speaking school. The latter walk past English signs, watch English television, interact with English-speaking people at least some of the time… the former do not. From what I read in the article, English appears to be a second, or maybe even a higher ordinal language in Hassidic communities (_after_ Yiddish, Hebrew, possibly Aramaic, Greek, and Arabic). This goes for math problems as well. Some of you may have forgotten how many math questions rely on word problems. [Here’s a practice 8th grade math test](https://www.education.ne.gov/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/NEG8MathPTPaper.12.06.10.pdf) I Googled, it’s from the state of Nebraska’s website. Even if these kids know the math they are taking a test written in a different language. I have a public high school education, and I mess up on basic addition and subtraction when it comes to word problems written in Spanish. The textbooks that they and their teachers use for secular subjects, including math, are probably written in English. Those books might possibly be mandated by the State as a condition for public funding. This approach is simply doomed to fail. The NYT reports the story of one (underqualified) teacher who a school hired of Craigslist to teach a secular subject, but he couldn’t speak Yiddish and the kids scared him off. What about native Yiddish speakers teaching secular subjects? The paper reports such teachers not knowing the answers to questions. I suspect a vicious cycle: there is a lack of native Yiddish-speakers who are qualified to teach secular subjects, due to their lack of knowledge on secular subjects, which is due to a lack of Yiddish-language materials on secular subjects, which is due to the lack of native Yiddish-speakers who are qualified to teach secular subjects. There are individuals who left the Hassidic community and achieved higher education, but as a matter of culture said individuals are permanent social exiles and won’t be hired as teachers. This is something I don’t think the State has any right to interfere with. Nevertheless if the State guarantees its citizens a right to a free public education, it is the State’s duty to actually step in and deliver on its guaranty. Not the Hassidic community’s duty - they appear to be collectively satisfied with what they have. To their own detriment, you might argue - but those parents _choose_ to enroll their kids at Yeshivas. Community leaders _choose_ to defend their institutions, rather than admit there’s a problem. The community _chooses_ to let their leadership control the narrative, and the lack of protest implies complacency. This is not at all like when Barbara Rose Johns led a 450 student walkout to protest segregation (leading to _Brown v. Board_). I assume there are New York City public schools within a reasonable distance if parents _wanted_ to enroll their kids in the public system. They don’t want to do so, because reasons - including of course being socially exiled by the rest of the Hassidic community. **RitterSport** suggested that anything called a school should have to meet some minimum standards. I think this is a workable suggestion, and I would put it into effect with an accredation process. The charge of truancy should apply when a child does not attend an accredited school, and private schools which fail to meet the standards for too many years are condemned by the state - they may still operate freely, but attendance does not prevent the state from charging you with truancy. Such is similar to the current state of affairs in New York under the New York Education Law, section [3204](https://newyork.public.law/laws/n.y._education_law_section_3204), which provides basic minimum standards of instruction which apply whether a minor attends public school or not. Violations warrant charges of truancy. Among those requirements is that the basic (secular) education uses English textbooks, and is conducted in the English language - special bilingual programs for students lacking English proficiency are restricted by statute to students with foreign ancestry or birth, and I’m guessing don’t apply to Hassidic communities. The Board of Regents is given statutory reign over rules and regulations which provide for religious exemptions to the basic instruction required by state law - presumably they previously provided an exemption, or were lax in applying the rules to Hassidic schools. In my opinion this failure falls squarely on the State. Per **Jackmanii** ’s post, the Board of Regents has passed stricter rules. We’ll see how that goes. Finally there are some elements I think deserve universal condemnation and swift investigation by law enforcement, such as parents bribing the teachers to protect students from corporal punishment, or potentially fraudulent usage of public funds. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2022, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/119 "2022-09-16T03:24:55Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > …while also finding ways to impose restrictions above and beyond the ones in the Bible. I understand this is the reason it’s considered impermissible to eat chicken and cheese in the same meal, even though chickens are not mammals and it’s therefore impossible to break the milk-meat prohibition. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2022, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424/120 "2022-09-16T03:27:24Z")
The idea is to back up a step or two from disallowed actions (a.k.a. “build a fence around the Torah”) so you don’t slide over a line by accident or proximity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/did-you-see-the-nyt-article-on-yeshivas/971424.md?page=7)