Actually, Jester, you seem to have missed the elementary fact that we are in the Pit. If this were a Great Debates thread I might agree with you, but, the Barbecue Pit is the place for venting spleen, hotly addressing “issues” one has with, oh…, churches, and just generally flaming. The fact that you flamed back, calling happyheathen a Complete Fucking Moron suggests that you understand the concept as it applies to you. But you seem unwilling to grant the right of (even unsubstantiated) opinion to anyone else. Good thing you’re tired of this “worthless” thread.
so little time.
Sorry, haven’t been keeping up.
Have we figured out a way to blame me for that unpleasantness with Galileo? Cathers? Surely, you should have figured out that it was me who slaughtered the Huguenots?
p.s. - if you are going to be a righteous Catholic, you really owe it to yourself to check in with the NCR from time-to-time:
meanwhile, I’ll be on the lookout for guys in red skullcaps stacking firewood around the streelight :wally
p.s. shut up until you have explored the link provided for your education. thank you.
I wasn’t annoyed, just terribly, terribly saddened. This man’s life was destroyed by what he experienced. I think more than anything else, his story shows how devastating child molestation can be. I don’t think he suddenly decided to go after the Church when he realized he could get money out of them; I think he decided to go after them when he realized that the actions of his priest were the cause for the sadness he had felt for a lifetime. He isn’t sueing, nor is he asking for some huge amount of damages. All he really wants is an acknowledgement that he was irretrievably damaged by someone in the Church heirarachy. Mostly his story sort of stands in for all of the children whose lives were affected by the Church’s coverup.
I posted the link primarily because it directly refuted tlw’s assertion that no one had ever strapped on a sign and protested at Church headquarters.
happyheathen, nice (pointless) change of subject. What I and others are objecting to is your smearing of Catholics with the implication that they are somehow collaborators on the pedophilia and its cover up. Can’t you understand that? Apparently not, since you whined about being flamed.
As an atheist, I don’t lay the blame for all crimes committed by religious people on all religious people. That would be as stupid as religious people claiming that, since I’m an atheist, I must somehow think of Mao, Stalin, and other assorted dictators as somehow better than religious leaders. I don’t, and resent any implication that I would have any support for those people.
You want to lay the blame where it belongs? Write letters to Catholic bishops and cardinals who assisted in the cover up, while neglecting the safety of people in their charge. Plenty of Catholic members are doing just that, and they are demanding accountability. Good for them!
From what I’ve seen of your posts in this and other threads, you seem mostly interested in discrediting Catholicism. Big deal. I quit going to church a long time ago, too. The issue of abuse of the laity by the hierarchy really has nothing to do with the basic tenets of the religion, which have nothing to do with molesting children, or the covering up of the act.
Again: Why all the Catholic bashing?
Well, I’m pissed off. Here I was, a hot young altar boy, and not one damn priest laid a hand on me! What am I, chopped liver? Not so much as a back rub or a pat on the ass. I feel so, so rejected!
[sub]Yes, I know it’s a serious topic, but SOMEbody has to inject a little levity![/sub]
Why anti-Catholic?
Simple - as has been opined by others, I also believe that the RCC is the single greatest source of EVIL in the history of guilty man. [sup]*[/sup] Now you know. Happy? Didn’t think so.
Now, to this thread:
Once again, back to the OP. This mess has been documented repeatedly.
Why did it take until now for it to get noticed?
Did Catholics not know, or not care?
I seems to me that many HAD to have known, yes, just as the germans living near the death camps had to have known.
The “we did’nt know” line seems more than a little disingenuous - how long can you be a member of a parish without noticing that entire families stop attending Mass? There would, I imagine, be other indicia, but really, NO CLUE EVER?
-
- as a heathen (reason enough for the RCC (and/or its offspring) to murder me, in times not that long ago), I do not accept the concept of “Original Sin”, from which I suspect the phrase “Guilty Man” originates.
I DO, however, LOVE the term.
- as a heathen (reason enough for the RCC (and/or its offspring) to murder me, in times not that long ago), I do not accept the concept of “Original Sin”, from which I suspect the phrase “Guilty Man” originates.
but we all shine on…
Would you care for some cheese with your whine, sir?
:snort:
You yirning zoophyte! I mean, really! What got slammed up your ass, a poison oak planet? geez…
Oh, for fuck’s sake. What the fuck do you know? I’m sure entire families stop going to mass for all kinds of reasons. Oh I forgot, you live near a church, and went in once.
Whoop-de-fuckin’ do. You’re just talking out of your ass. You know those Catholics that are like the German’s, standing idly by while drooling priests bugger the sweet innocence out of young boys like the Nazi’s gassing millions of Jews in death camps? Well, you’re the smug mother-fucking self-satisfied vile asshole that delighted in every single minute of it, because the world might finally learn how bad German philosophy was.
You are a troll, and I do believe in ignoring you. So I’m gonna find out what this button does.
Wow. I suppose it is the height of folly to even ask, but ya got a cite for that?
Actually, I’m quite happy with your reply. It goes a long way toward confirming my opinion that ignorant stupidity is not limited to members of various religions, but tends to be pretty much a human trait that humans need to combat within themselves. Nothing wrong with being ignorant or stupid in and of themselves, just having it pointed out to you and doing nothing about it is a pretty sad thing.
By the way: The idea that the RCC is “the greatest source of EVIL in the history of guilty man” is pretty laughable. What ever happened to people on power trips? Stalin wasn’t Catholic. Most of the control freaks I’ve encountered don’t use any religious ideology to back up their shitheadedness. All the evil that the Catholic church has done, as far as I can tell, can be traced back to simple power tripping. It just gets wrapped up in the cloak of religion to justify it.
I too, am glad to live in a country where religious liberty is the law of the land (no matter how often politicians try, and succeed, to fuck it up). I too, am happy that I won’t be burned at the stake for thinking theology is a silly waste of time.
As for Original Sin: Yup, the theologists who came up with that were con artists extrordanaire, stabbing humanity in the back and selling the band aids to “cure” the wound. So what? As far as I can tell, it’s just an instrument of control. But if people believe in that, how does it hurt you? You don’t have to buy into it.
Yes, there was a massive conspiracy among the laity to protect child molesters. :rolleyes:
You are missing the point: The RCC is not a democratic organization, open to review by its members. They did, in fact pay off some families who complained for their silence. Many kids who were abused took years to tell anyone, due to guilt, shame, etc. This is fairly common among abused children, they feel the abuse is their fault. Don’t smear the parishoners, they had their trust betrayed. This is not the same as Germans in WWII seeing trains full of people going into camps, smokestacks and ashes, etc. The issue is way more complicated than, “Well, they had to know.”
I’m going to have to disagree. True, Great Debates is the place for “real” debate, but just because the BBQ Pit is the place to vent doesn’t mean that you don’t have to have a pretty damn good reason to vent. At least, that is, if you don’t want to get flamed. Happyheathen could have said “All black people are evil, and should be shot,” and his argument would have about as much basis as the present one. And he would be flamed for it. Being in the Pit does not give you liscence to be a complete jerk for no reason; it just means that you can be more…forceful…in your delivery of opinions.
Since HH has expressed a desire not to be flamed, (ie asking the mod’s to close the thread if it “got too hot”), he seems to want a debate. Anyone who has tried to refute him by yelling at him Pit-style has gotten a snarky little “wow, great input” remark and had their comments ignored. So, in the interest of fighting ignorance, I decided to try to change his mind in a way that was so neutrally logical that he couldn’t give me one of those replies. It didn’t work, but hey, I gave it the old college try.
And yes, I did call him a Complete Fucking Moron, but that is, as you stated, because this is the Pit. And yes, I do understand how that applies to me, in that I realize that if I’m going to call someone a CFM I better have a damn good reason for it. HH can call me whatever he wants, but unless he has a real, honest-to-God reason for it, it will have no bearing.
And I didn’t say I was done with this thread, I said I was done with arguing with HH, because in my opinion he is being incredibly trollish and, in my opinion, worthless. I’m still following the thread, because somewhere in there are some good ideas and discussions. Again, being in the Pit doesn’t mean that a thread can’t be civil.
At least, that’s my take on things. Hope I cleared it up.
HH you keep insisting that ‘people had to know’
however you offer no proof.
CHild molestation is not done publically.
Child molestation is done secretely.
The molester knows.
The child knows.
Sometimes the child tells some one, other times they don’t.
The molester never tells.
Sometimes, when the child tells some one, they’re not believed.
sometimes when the child tells their parents, the parents will simply (in this case) quit the church and never speak of it again.
Sometimes when the child tells their parents, the parents will tell the police - this happened on certain rare occasions.
Sometimes when the child tells the parents, the parents (in this sort of case) will tell the priest’s boss. In that case, apparently, the church would assure the parents that the priest would be ‘dealt with’, the priest would be sent elsewhere, and the parents wouldn’t know where.
Now, of course, in my experience (25 years working with offenders etc.) the one thing that never ever fucking happens is that the parents shout it from the rooftops.
so how in the fuck would anyone else know?
While the church may have had its share of evil doings, it has also done a great deal of GOOD.
No, but several Bishops have records, we know that THEY knew.
ain’t going NEAR this one
Maybe that is another issue - why the parents did NOT scream?
I’d like to think that I would never accept a settlement which included a ‘confidentiality’ clause.
How would they have known? Maybe read the National Catholic Reporter, maybe? (you DID follow the link, right?)
Guin - thank you for not using profanity in your latest post
It seems futile, but I figure I’ll give it one more shot to get you to understand what we are saying:
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As far as can be proven, regular, everyday Catholics did not know about this anymore than you did (maybe not even as much as you did.)
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Neither you nor most of the regular, everyday Catholics did anything about it.
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They weren’t part of the coverup, or to blame for all this, anymore than you (or Opal.)
How hard is that to understand, really?
If you are still wondering how it is the majority of Catholics didn’t know about this, I’ll try to explain it in a little more detail:
This hardly happened in every single parish. The scope is much wider than earlier believed, but it certainly does not cover ALL churches. Does anyone have any actual statistics on how many parishes have had priests that molested children? I would bet that the percent would be nowhere near 100, and probably less than 50. Already that discounts half of Catholics out of firsthand knowledge of such incidents. Any knowledge these Catholics gained would be through news reports and rumors, which were not enough to cause them to take any action.
It seems that relatively few Catholics had the specific knowledge needed to take action. Some of those even came forward and protested. If you want to further your side at all, you have to provide any evidence that a good amount of Catholics had specific knowledge that something was going on and did nothing about it. So far you have offered nothing that amounts to good evidence.
So let me get this straight-you would allow your child’s privacy to be infringed upon merely because of some grudge you have with the church?
And what the hell does profanity have to do with anything, dumbass? Great God the Father Almighty! You start a thread accusing Catholics of staying silent about abuses they allegedly knew about, and then get offended by a few swears?
You need serious help.
hh, you are blaming the RCC for human nature. Humans, as a species, seem to be selfish, greedy, clannish, and aggressive. ‘Religion’ is often used as an excuse for indulging in behavior consistent with this ‘dark side’ of humanity, but it is not the cause. Many religions have been twisted and perverted by those who desire easy wealth and power over others.
Since you are the one that brought up Nazis, can you explain the religious basis for WWII to me? True, Hitler targeted the Jews, but it seems to me that any minority group would have served his purpose. Are you going to tell me that Germany and Japan became allies in their bid for world power because they shared the same religious beliefs? And/or that Japan attacked the US because of religious differences?
You are using religion, and specifically the RCC, as a scapegoat. I’m sure it is easier and more comforting to blame ‘religion’ for horrible actions by humanity than to accept and acknowledge that individual humans, just like you and me, are ultimately responsible for making the decisions to commit those acts.
Look, without proof what you have is allegations. You do not know something that you have no proof of. There may be an overwhelmingly strong likelihood that it is in fact true, but if you don’t have proof, you don’t know it.
You do not know that there were molestations anywhere that has not already been documented in the public press or which you yourself happen to have witnessed. I’d say that there is a strong likelihood that there are many more cases which have been covered up, on the basis of the amount of stuff they’ve found under the rocks they’ve already turned over. But that’s not proof.
HH - you replied to me, perhaps if you’d go back and actually reply to my challenge?
you state, over and over ‘how could they not know’, referring to the average Catholic, making references to the townspeople near the Nazi concentration Camp etc. But when asked for proof, evidence that they ‘had’ to know, all you offer up is the BIshops. I don’t think anyone was denying that many Bishops knew there were problems. What the objection has been, is to suggest that the average Catholic worshiper had any idea.
And, re: the parents - why wouldn’t they tell? Are you serious? Sexual abuse of a child is an immensely difficult situation to deal with - your child has been harmed, by some one they trust, and what **you ** seem to want the parents to do is to insure that everyone around the child become aware of it as well.
As I said before - some times the child never told. some times the parents didn’t believe the child. some times the parents simply removed their child from the situation, some times the parents went to the police, some times the parents went to the church heirarchy.
and in generally no case, does the average parent of a sexually abused child make the issue public to those people who are going to be around that child. The papers generally don’t print the name of the victim (or parents in my town), to protect their privacy.
Criminey.
So, in short, you have shown zero evidence for your repeated contentions that people ‘had’ to have known. The only people who may have known is some of the parents involved, and they had IMHO, ample, legitimate reasons to not wish to publicize their child’s victimization, even if they went to the police, or the church authorities.