# Didn't like Voyager? You would have if it had more white males! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343 "2013-06-19T06:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/61 "2013-06-21T06:57:34Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Deserts, yes; not rain forest. It would be far more logical for them to resemble Middle Easterners than Sub-Saharan Africans. The vast majority of sub-Saharan Africa is savannah, not rain forests. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/62 "2013-06-21T07:03:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The vast majority of sub-Saharan Africa is savannah, not rain forests. Savannahs are not deserts either. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/63 "2013-06-21T11:10:43Z")
And despite Media tropes, there should never be ‘One Kind of Climate’ Planets. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/64 "2013-06-21T13:56:12Z")
On the savannah / rainforest / desert thing: Who’s to say how Vulcan pigmentation works? Or indeed, what the exact radiation profile is of the various planets? Why shouldn’t Vulcans of a world that’s mostly tundra have green skin with yellow stripes? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/65 "2013-06-21T14:01:50Z")
I hate him. He is green on the left side! ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/66 "2013-06-21T14:08:47Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > And despite Media tropes, there should never be ‘One Kind of Climate’ Planets. I question this. During snowball Earth phases of our climate, Earth pretty much only has one kind of climate, right? Look at Venus and Mars right here in our own solar system. They pretty much just have one global climate don’t they? In fact… Earth seems to be a real exception to the rule. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/67 "2013-06-21T15:23:21Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Why shouldn’t Vulcans of a world that’s mostly tundra have green skin with yellow stripes? Not to be confused with the Vulcans that are yellow with green stripes ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/68 "2013-06-21T15:44:23Z")
[**Vulcans are Tory blue**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan,_Alberta). ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/69 "2013-06-21T15:49:43Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Hmm… never realized there was so much Janeway hatred out there. In the gay sci-fi fandom community she is insanely popular. I really like her a lot. Some of the episodes were written terribly for her, it’s true. > > [snip] > > But the worst epsiodes of each series, TNG takes the cake easily for me. VOY rarely ever reached the insipid depths of the terribleness that TNG did. In the first part, you are wrong. This is not simply a statement of taste - you are wrong. Janeway as a character is irrational, unpredictable, overly personal, frequently violent for no reason, and incompetent to command anyone for any reason. She repeatedly makes poor choices for poorer reasons, and is largely correct only when and because the show declares her to be. The second part is also wrong, although that _is_ a matter of taste. Season 1 of TNG was rough, but it developed much better and never fell into the depths of Voyager. Nothing anywhere else in all of Trekdom matches the sheer awful of Twisted or Threshold, and those were simply the worst of a very bad lot. But even the average Voyager episode was barely tolerable; the average TNG episode was solidly entertaining. The average Voyager episode dodged away from consequences, interesting questions, or real drama. The average TNG episode raised serious issues, confronted characters with unpleasant choices, and challenged the values of the characters and the viewer in some way. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/70 "2013-06-21T16:19:29Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The second part is also wrong, although that _is_ a matter of taste. Season 1 of TNG was rough, but it developed much better and never fell into the depths of Voyager. Nothing anywhere else in all of Trekdom matches the sheer awful of Twisted or Threshold, and those were simply the worst of a very bad lot. But even the average Voyager episode was barely tolerable; the average TNG episode was solidly entertaining. The average Voyager episode dodged away from consequences, interesting questions, or real drama. The average TNG episode raised serious issues, confronted characters with unpleasant choices, and challenged the values of the characters and the viewer in some way. I tend to agree drewtwo99. There are plenty of terrible episodes on TNG too, (and even a few on DS9) but people tend to be a lot more forgiving, because there were quite a lot of great ones too. What about the time Beverley fell in love with a Scottish ghost? Or the one where Yar has to have an arena fight in the planet of the racial sterotypes? Or the one where the traveller takes them to the other side of the universe, and they have to get back by getting the crew to think “there’s no place like home”? Or anything where Troi was the main character? Also, when TNG was first aired, there was pretty much no other sci-fi around, so I think the standards were generally lower. By the time Voyager came around, we had had DS9, B5, Farscape and Stargate, all of which were much better than Voyager. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/71 "2013-06-21T16:32:23Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > Also, when TNG was first aired, there was pretty much no other sci-fi around, so I think the standards were generally lower. By the time Voyager came around, we had had DS9, B5, Farscape and Stargate, all of which were much better than Voyager. Yes, but that’s the point. It’s harder to blaze a trail than to follow, but Voyager failed at the second, whereas TNG ultimately succeeded at the first. Aside from which, I can forgive a rough first season a lot more than I can forgive a rough middle. But even leaving all of that aside, the characters on TNG were far better defined and developed as individuals than anything we saw on Voyager. Even a _bad_ episode on TNG was equal to an _average_ episode on Voyager - simply because they took more care with the characters and at least tried to do something difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/72 "2013-06-21T17:07:18Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Yes, but that’s the point. It’s harder to blaze a trail than to follow, but Voyager failed at the second, whereas TNG ultimately succeeded at the first. Aside from which, I can forgive a rough first season a lot more than I can forgive a rough middle. But even leaving all of that aside, the characters on TNG were far better defined and developed as individuals than anything we saw on Voyager. Even a _bad_ episode on TNG was equal to an _average_ episode on Voyager - simply because they took more care with the characters and at least tried to do something difficult. Yeah, have to agree with you about characters. In many ways, Voyager was doomed from the start with in that the crew. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/73 "2013-06-21T17:13:09Z")
This theory totally explains the runaway popularity of _Enterprise_, which had more white guys in it than any series since the original. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/74 "2013-06-21T17:40:38Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > On the savannah / rainforest / desert thing: > > Who’s to say how Vulcan pigmentation works? Or indeed, what the exact radiation profile is of the various planets? > > Why shouldn’t Vulcans of a world that’s mostly tundra have green skin with yellow stripes? Mostly _tundra_? They’d be … what? White? 😕 On a savannah, why not … white with black stripes? What’s more important: camouflage or regulating body temperature and preventing sunburn? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/75 "2013-06-21T17:49:55Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Aside from which, I can forgive a rough first season a lot more than I can forgive a rough middle. Yeah but some of those examples listed are not first season, I think. Also, I don’t think it’s possible to overstate how bad that first season was. Just the announcement that a ship has been detected on long range sensors had the whole crew staring at each other with shocked expressions, while the orchestra turned it up to 11. Not that I would ever say Voyager was better than TNG (which is my favourite), but people exaggerate the difference in quality. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/76 "2013-06-21T18:00:32Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Mostly _tundra_? They’d be … what? White? 😕 > > On a savannah, why not … white with black stripes? > > What’s more important: camouflage or regulating body temperature and preventing sunburn? :dubious: I don’t think you understand my objection. Vulcans are a completely different species from us. Indeed they are not related to us at all; we are more related to a nematode worm than we are to Vulcans. It’s an absurd assumption to make that their skin would be so similar to ours that we can assume they have the pigment melanin to protect them from sunburn. Why not another pigment? Why not other pigments _in addition to_ melanin? Why not another mechanism entirely? And why have we assumed that their star pumps out sufficient UVA and UVB to be a problem, and that their atmosphere doesn’t absorb it? The fact that the actors look so much like humans and have human skin tones is obviously a conceit for the fact they are played by human actors. But within that reality, just about any handwave for why Tuvok has dark skin is sufficient since at the end of the day, he’s an alien. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/77 "2013-06-21T18:15:17Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > … > > Vulcans are a completely different species from us. Indeed they are not related to us at all; we are more related to a nematode worm than we are to Vulcans. > > … Not according to [The Chase](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chase_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)). ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/78 "2013-06-21T18:21:46Z")
Slightly OT, but [some of these TNG Season 8 episode suggestions are hilarious](https://twitter.com/TNG_S8) ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/79 "2013-06-21T18:31:58Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > Not according to [The Chase](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chase_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)). That’s all? If she were not dead, I would kill her. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/80 "2013-06-21T18:32:40Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > Not according to [The Chase](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chase_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)). Yeah I’m aware of that episode and was going to mention it in my last post, but ultimately didn’t (for brevity). Here’s why I don’t think it harms my point: 1. Among the humanoid races this master species created, includes species with different colour skin from humans e.g. those blue guys with the antennae. So clearly skin pigmentation either wasn’t in the original template, or their mechanism for controlling evolution isn’t so tight as to force skin pigmentation. So, again, Vulcans can have whatever skin colour “rules” we like. 2. When something happens that has implications that far-reaching, and you only hear about it in one episode, I don’t think it’s usually counted as canon. For example, that episode where they discovered that warping starships eventually damage subspace, making further warping dangerous or impossible. Never heard about it again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343.md?page=5)