# Didn't like Voyager? You would have if it had more white males! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343 "2013-06-19T06:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/81 "2013-06-21T20:06:13Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > If they wanted Kes to be the eye candy they should have ditched the stupid looking wig. My cite: evil longhaired leather Kes. This thread made me wonder what happened to the actress who played Kes and sadly, I found [this](http://tennessee.mugshotsdatabase.com/15302/jennifer-lien-mug-shot/) ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/82 "2013-06-21T20:14:06Z")
> [@xizor](#): > > This thread made me wonder what happened to the actress who played Kes and sadly, I found [this](http://tennessee.mugshotsdatabase.com/15302/jennifer-lien-mug-shot/) ☹ If I lived with Neelix, I’d be guilty of a few domestic assaults myself. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/83 "2013-06-21T20:36:40Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I don’t think you understand my objection. I don’t think you understand my comments. Just looking at the millions, if not billions, of species that have evolved on this planet, we can see patterns that are repeated over and over again, suggesting that evolution does indeed follow natural laws of some sort. Those same laws (e.g., the need for camouflage against predators, the need to regulate internal temperature, the need to manage exposure to radiation) should (if not _must_) apply to planets similar enough to ours to evolve humanoid life. Vulcans are upright, symmetrical bipeds with stereoscopic vision, opposable thumbs, etc., etc., etc., and are capable of logical thought and articulate speech that expresses similar and shared concepts. We may have spawned in different oceans, but to say that humans have no more in common with Vulcans than they do with a worm is just plain silly. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/84 "2013-06-21T20:39:28Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > Slightly OT, but [some of these TNG Season 8 episode suggestions are hilarious](https://twitter.com/TNG_S8) “Beverly solves a medical mystery that stains her mentor’s legacy. Wes and his pals are caught ‘Worfing’- huffing Worf’s laundry to get high.” I can’t get that image out of my head. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/85 "2013-06-21T20:40:57Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > 1. When something happens that has implications that far-reaching, and you only hear about it in one episode, I don’t think it’s usually counted as canon. For example, that episode where they discovered that warping starships eventually damage subspace, making further warping dangerous or impossible. Never heard about it again. Yes you did. There was a later episode where Picard mentions that they have a special dispensation to travel above Warp X because of the dire situation. But, yeah, they seem to have shelved that idea for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/86 "2013-06-21T21:28:57Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > “Beverly solves a medical mystery that stains her mentor’s legacy. Wes and his pals are caught ‘Worfing’- huffing Worf’s laundry to get high.” > > I can’t get that image out of my head. “Steak for mouth, hot.” ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/87 "2013-06-21T21:56:51Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > Slightly OT, but [some of these TNG Season 8 episode suggestions are hilarious](https://twitter.com/TNG_S8) Worf has a tail? I did not know that! ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/88 "2013-06-22T04:48:36Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Yes you did. There was a later episode where Picard mentions that they have a special dispensation to travel above Warp X because of the dire situation. But, yeah, they seem to have shelved that idea for the most part. They didn’t specify on any of the shows but I am sure I saw pre-production material from Voyager that said the reason the warp nacelles angled up like that was to prevent the subspace prolapses. The Ent-E’s angled warp nacelles suggest the same. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/89 "2013-06-22T06:37:39Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I don’t think you understand my comments. > > Just looking at the millions, if not billions, of species that have evolved on this planet, we can see patterns that are repeated over and over again, suggesting that evolution does indeed follow natural laws of some sort. Those same laws (e.g., the need for camouflage against predators, the need to regulate internal temperature, the need to manage exposure to radiation) should (if not _must_) apply to planets similar enough to ours to evolve humanoid life. > > Vulcans are upright, symmetrical bipeds with stereoscopic vision, opposable thumbs, etc., etc., etc., and are capable of logical thought and articulate speech that expresses similar and shared concepts. We may have spawned in different oceans, but to say that humans have no more in common with Vulcans than they do with a worm is just plain silly. No, you still don’t get it. I didn’t say we had more in common with a worm I said we were more _related_. This is relevant because even if the requirement of protecting skin from sunburn is exactly the same on Vulcan (so straight away we’re assuming the same radiation profile from the star, same atmosphere on the planet etc), there is no reason why they would necessarily use melanin. On earth many species, particularly mammals, use melanin for skin or hair pigmentation, but again _we’re related_. Outside of the clade Mammalia, many species use other pigments; and note we’re still related to such species, just not as closely. Now imagine a species that _is not related to us at all_. That’s why the claim that Vulcans must necessarily use melanin, and that Tuvok’s ancestors must therefore come from a Savannah-like area of Vulcan, is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/90 "2013-06-22T06:53:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I was very pleased by the inclusion of Doctor Bashir, but I’m not sure how many people realized he was of Muslim descent. He may not have been - given the ancestors of his who were listed, his ancestry may have been Sikh. (There’s at least one Singh in there.) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/91 "2013-06-22T08:35:05Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Now imagine a species that _is not related to us at all_. > That’s why the claim that Vulcans must necessarily use melanin, and that Tuvok’s ancestors must therefore come from a Savannah-like area of Vulcan, is ludicrous. _Au contraire_, it is quite obviously **not** ludicrous, as Tuvok clearly \*\*has \*\*melanin, or the Vulcan equivalent thereof. I have eyes. I can see the man is **black**. It’s entirely logical that similar environments would produce the same defense mechanisms in species that are, while not **related** to us, much the same in many other aspects. Why would living on a different planet with conditions not uncommon on Earth make any difference? Vulcans _might_ have evolved other defense mechanisms if they had turned out closer to reptilian, avian, amphibian, icthyne, or something else, but they _didn’t_. _ **They are clearly humanoid.** _ Why did humans evolve with different colored skins? Because they lived in different climatic zones. Why would Vulcans evolve with different colored skins? Until we know otherwise, **logic** would suggest it was for the very same reason. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/92 "2013-06-22T08:53:06Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > _Au contraire_, it is quite obviously **not** ludicrous, as Tuvok clearly \*\*has \*\*melanin, or the Vulcan equivalent thereof. I have eyes. I can see the man is **black**. Sure, you can’t tell the biochemistry of a extraterrestrial species’ skin just from looking at what overall colour it is. Glad we’ve got that sorted. > [@](#): > > It’s entirely logical that similar environments would produce the same defense mechanisms in species that are, while not **related** to us, much the same in many other aspects. Why would living on a different planet with conditions not uncommon on Earth make any difference? Firstly, how similar Vulcan’s star and atmosphere is to earth is entirely as defined by the writers. Secondly, let’s say they evolve a similar defence mechanism as has happened on earth. Why melanin specifically and not any other pigment? Perhaps their dermis is dark and a white/pinkish pigment protects their skin from the sun: thus having inverted colours from Homo sapiens – why is this impossible to you? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/93 "2013-06-22T09:29:40Z")
Actually, you know what, I’m sick of feeding you. You’re right: all extraterrestrial species have the same physiology as humans. And we can be sure of that from the fact that they are played by human actors. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/94 "2013-06-22T10:10:22Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I was very pleased by the inclusion of Doctor Bashir, but I’m not sure how many people realized he was of Muslim descent. Nitpick, Muslim isn’t a race. His father is a Sudanese Arab. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/95 "2013-06-22T10:40:13Z")
So _that’s_ why I wasn’t keen on _Voyager_. I’m a racist asshole. And all this time I thought it was the bad writing and the worse acting. Clearly my innate racism is coloring my whole vision as at first sight Ian Grey’s article looked like a steaming pile of ordure. At second sight too actually. What a terrible person I must be. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/96 "2013-06-22T10:45:57Z")
I’ve always thought that the Star Trek universe was a little unexciting. Travelling the far frontiers, but always in shirt sleeve order, they don’t even have to put on a sweater, let alone a space suit. They can go anywhere or do anything they like for pleasure, courtesy of the the Holo decks, that and eat whatever they like thanks to the matter converters. And yes I do appreciate that in the future they’ll probably be able to do all that, but it doesn’t ramp up the tension or excitement any . Why the hell they had to go on leave beats me ! Perhaps they used it slogging through swamps while heavily laden, with wicked aliens trying to kill them, so as to have a bit of a change. And not go mad with boredom when they’re back on board. Discipline is a joke, people routinely discuss their orders before carrying them out, that’s of course if they don’t tell the Captain that he’s wrong, which he takes in good part and then defers to their opinion. And then of course theres always the emotionless character, a Vulcan, Android, runaway Borg etc. whos function is to make the laziest and thickest couch potato watching, feel good about themselves . Yes I am a parasite on society, yes I’ve never achieved anything or contributed anything to the community… But HEY ! I feel emotions, I’m bleeding wonderful, just being me makes me a living miracle . And of course the emotionless characters DO really feel a little bit of emotion. Envy at our wonderful Humanity ! Well try telling my P.C. or fridge that, cos they’re emotionless, and they’ve never expressed even curiousity, let alone wonder and envy at how Humans think and feel. That’s because they haven’t got ANY EMOTIONS ! And finally, the thing that pees me off the most is that everyones so bloody NICE ! No bad temper, no irritation, no lusting after other crew members, no getting drunk, overeating, having petty arguments off duty. Not a bastard amongst the lot, if that’s the future then its going to be bloody boring. Explore the universe, make first contacts, fight evil… All in a state of excitement achieved by near sedation. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/97 "2013-06-22T10:49:07Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > _Au contraire_, it is quite obviously **not** ludicrous, as Tuvok clearly \*\*has \*\*melanin, or the Vulcan equivalent thereof. I have eyes. I can see the man is **black**. A Vulcan’s blackness could be completely nonfunctional, like the feathers of a peacock; or, he’s a descendant from a predominantly cave-dwelling offshoot that evolved blackness to not stick out in the dark; or, Vulcans might respire at least partially through their skin, and the environment Tuvok’s ancestors evolved in might have had a slightly different atmosphere from most of the rest of Vulcan, necessitating a slightly different chemical composition of the skin; or, it’s just a random genetic mutation, and part of the natural variation within the Vulcan species, like red hair or blue eyes in humans; or any of dozens of other such stories one could tell. To claim that because Vulcans look like humans, and because black skin pigmentation in humans evolved in response to climatic factors, black skin pigmentation in Vulcans must have evolved in response to the same climatic factors is… not very logical. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/98 "2013-06-22T11:55:06Z")
Vulcanians have emotions. They have learned a way to suppress and control them. > [@](#): > > Contrary to stereotype, Vulcans did possess emotions; indeed, Vulcan emotions were far more intense, violent, and passionate than those of many other species, including even Humans. (TNG: “Sarek”) It was this passionate, explosive emotionality that Vulcans blamed for the vicious cycle of wars which nearly devastated their planet. As such, they focused their mental energies on mastering them. > > The essence of their logical society was in arriving at the truth through logical process. Emotions were illogical, thus making them impure, and deterrent to truth. Vulcans were born with the same emotions that afflicted their violent ancestors, but continual mental conditioning generally gave them the impassivity they sought. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/99 "2013-06-22T13:51:07Z")
Tranya anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/100 "2013-06-23T21:11:55Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > … Admittedly, the “bad” eps of Voyager (like the one where Janeway and Paris turned into huge slugs . . . then _mated_) … :eek: You’ve GOT to be making that up. (Or are you???) …Anyway, the quality of the writing (and casting) of _Voyager_ aside: it would be ridiculous to deny that there are gender/ethnicity _'formulas for expected success_’ in play in television entertainment. Look at the promotional graphics for any and all new shows. Only shows “for women” will depart from the casting basics: Five males for every two females. That is “balance.” (Apparently femaleness is so virulent that it trumps mathematics.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343.md?page=6)