# Didn't like Voyager? You would have if it had more white males! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 19, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343 "2013-06-19T06:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/101 "2013-06-23T22:46:22Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > :eek: You’ve GOT to be making that up. > > (Or are you???) He is. They turned into LIZARDS. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/102 "2013-06-24T01:07:18Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > What’s wrong with Avery Brooks? I thought he was terrific as Sisko! Don’t tell me you think he’s only got one mood: “rage”? I thought he portrayal of a captain at the edge of Federation territory next to a wormhole leading to across the galaxy was nuanced, emotional, deep, and totally original. They couldn’t have put Patrick Stewart in that role He’s my favorite captain after Kirk. More competent than Janeway (but who wasn’t), less passive than Picard. Plus he got Vulcans to play baseball. I don’t even like baseball but I loved that. As for Voyager, I liked most of the crew, but not Janeway and 7of9. Chakotay was a bit annoying at times, but much less so than those two, the rest I liked pretty well. The Doctor may well be one of the best ST characters of all time, too bad the lame plots kept him down. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/103 "2013-06-24T02:39:20Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > He is. They turned into LIZARDS. Oh, well, THAT makes perfect sense. But, I mean, SLUGS?!?!? Insane. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/104 "2013-06-24T14:11:44Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Oh, well, THAT makes perfect sense. But, I mean, SLUGS?!?!? Insane. That’s not even the insane part of the episode. You didn’t ask _why_ they turn into lizards… …because they went too fast in a shuttle. Supposedly they went to infinite speed, and that caused their bodies to speed up their evolution (because evolution works on individuals, like in Pokemon), which turned them into salamander-like creatures. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/105 "2013-06-24T14:26:37Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > That’s not even the insane part of the episode. You didn’t ask _why_ they turn into lizards… > > …because they went too fast in a shuttle. Supposedly they went to infinite speed, and that caused their bodies to speed up their evolution (because evolution works on individuals, like in Pokemon), which turned them into salamander-like creatures. The actors’ contracts must have contained a clause saying that if anyone objected to the writing, they’d be shot. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/106 "2013-06-24T15:21:28Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > He’s my favorite captain after Kirk. More competent than Janeway (but who wasn’t), less passive than Picard. Plus he got Vulcans to play baseball. I don’t even like baseball but I loved that. Ah, but Sisko wasn’t a Captain, mostly. He was the Commander. Of course, I liked this, as it meant his job was explicitly about dealing with factions, conflicting subordinates, and trying to balance out sides in which he didn’t have dominating authority. Placing the station on the frontier was another brilliant move, as it meant there was a constant stream of less-than-desirables, foreigners with very different assumptions about how things should work, and odd situations. I was long amused by the fact that Voyager and TNG was supposedly about our fearless explorers going to new places, but was never really about discovery and the most interesting plots were internal to the characters. DS9, despite literally never moving, actually did have radical plot developments, constant discoveries, and faced the task of dealing with new ideas and people with gusto. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/107 "2013-06-24T16:20:30Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > DS9, despite literally never moving, actually did have radical plot developments, constant discoveries, and faced the task of dealing with new ideas and people with gusto. The wormhole brought aliens to the contraption rather the contraption going to aliens. Despite Janeway and Howdy Doody getting it on as salamanders, I preferred Voyager to DS9. I stopped watching DS9 in the third season. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/108 "2013-06-24T16:26:21Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > I stopped watching DS9 in the third season. Shame, because it was really good from the 4th season onwards ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/109 "2013-06-24T17:24:33Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > The wormhole brought aliens to the contraption rather the contraption going to aliens. In-universe, maybe. It’s just one arbitrary plot-convenience out of endless possibilities. The points is that DS9 actually dealt with the issues of new and different cultures. Voyager did not. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/110 "2013-06-24T19:22:11Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > The actors’ contracts must have contained a clause saying that if anyone objected to the writing, they’d be shot. This made me laugh. (I’m not a fan of forum-buttons in general, but sometimes I want a Laugh one!) …Then I started thinking about scripted television as a whole, and I realized: that clause must be a pretty standard one. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/111 "2013-06-25T05:12:31Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > The actors’ contracts must have contained a clause saying that if anyone objected to the writing, they’d be shot. Early on, it sure seems like it. Later on, though, the actors were able to get more and more control of the process. For example, the reason why Janeway is such a schizophrenic character is that Mulgrew herself started taking control of that character. The scripts would make her one way, but then she’d successfully get it changed–but only some of the time. So the character kept going back and forth. And that’s not a slight against her–she had a much better idea of the character. She was the one that figured out that Janeway would not be such a stickler. ---
**Author:** ![Jormungandr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@Jormungandr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jormungandr)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/112 "2013-06-25T19:14:28Z")
The fact that Janeway admitted that they might be a generational ship, but no one is having babies. “Galactica”'s Adama got it right. Also, the episode “Renaissance Man” with this quote, “Voyager can survive without its warp core… but not without its captain.” So, Chakotay was there for window dressing? TOS Kirk was willing to sacrifice himself for his ship, as well were Capts. George Kirk and Robau in the 2009 film. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/113 "2013-06-25T20:59:03Z")
Although the article does seem to find more to like about _Voyager_ and it’s characters than the series deserves–and really, simply attributing the hate to fanboy sexism is a pretty lazy analysis–the article also makes a point about how the focus of quality television has moved away from strong, competent female leads toward (in the author’s words) “alpha males struggling to hold onto their privilege during changing times. That’s only a ‘universal’ story if you agree that straight white males really are the universe.” First. I’ll ignore the author’s omission of _The Wire_–a series that has few “straight white male” characters. Nevertheless, I don’t think the difference in female characters between _Voyager_ and, say, _Nurse Jackie_ or _Homeland_ (hmm…what about _Scandal_?) have anything to do with denying female empowerment. Rather, it shows a stronger modern appetite for characters that are in general more complex and morally ambiguous than they were in 1995. A few details aside (I’ll concede the author’s notions about the “Fair Haven” episode, though I think this can be explained better as a Harlequin romance rather than sexual liberation), Janeway is not really that interesting, and her motives are usually straight from the “hero” playbook. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/114 "2013-06-25T21:48:03Z")
> [@Jormungandr](#): > > The fact that Janeway admitted that they might be a generational ship, but no one is having babies. Wasn’t the Wildman girl born onboard? [uh-Yep, more or less …](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Naomi_Wildman) ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/115 "2013-06-25T23:59:17Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Ah, but Sisko wasn’t a Captain, mostly. He was the Commander. He was Commander for 3 years of the show, Captain for 4. Probably should’ve been made Captain earlier, when he was given command of the Defiant, though. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/116 "2013-06-26T01:12:53Z")
The downfall of Voyager can be summed up as this; _It started with a great premise. And threw it away in the first episode._ ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/117 "2013-06-26T22:47:17Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The downfall of Voyager can be summed up as this; > > _It started with a great premise. > And threw it away in the first episode._ In my opinion, it works better if you first saw it without knowing the premise. That’s what I did. When seen like that, it just feels like an extension of TNG. Which isn’t surprising, as many of the scripts were written with TNG in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/118 "2013-06-27T01:07:08Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The downfall of Voyager can be summed up as this; > > _It started with a great premise. > And threw it away in the first episode._ One of [my favorite reviewers](http://www.sfdebris.com/) summed it up as “_Voyager_: Where potential goes to die.” Hell, [as an interview with Garrett Wang](http://www.startrek.com/article/straight-talk-with-voyagerundefineds-garrett-wang-part-i) mentioned… > [@trekmovie.com](#): > > OK, so what were the missed opportunities? What did we not learn about Harry that you as the actor portraying him felt should have been explored? > > Wang: Where do I begin when it comes to answering what I thought were the missed opportunities on Voyager? I think it would be best if we go back to the beginning. When casting ended on Voyager, all the actors were invited by executive producer Rick Berman to attend a congratulatory luncheon. It was during this lunch that Berman informed us that he expected all actors portraying human roles to follow his decree. He told us that we were to underplay our human characters. He wanted our line delivery to be as military – and subsequently devoid of emotion – as possible, since this, in his opinion, was the only way to make the aliens look real. > > My first thought was, “That’s not right! What the heck was Berman talking about? Was he pulling our legs? The human characters shouldn’t be forced to muffle their emotions. We were human, not androids!” But, being the newbie in Hollywood, I did not make any objections… yet. During the entire first year filming Voyager, actors were required to re-shoot certain scenes because of excessive emotion… ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/119 "2013-06-27T01:16:40Z")
> [@](#): > > It was during this lunch that Berman informed us that he expected all actors portraying human roles to follow his decree. He told us that we were to underplay our human characters. He wanted our line delivery to be as military – and subsequently devoid of emotion – as possible, since this, in his opinion, was the only way to make the aliens look real. No wonder Berman and Trek were spaced. Bozo. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343/120 "2013-06-27T04:22:03Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > No wonder Berman and Trek were spaced. Bozo. According to the rumors, Berman’s the reason we never saw any gays on Trek, either. Well, aside from in the evil mirror universe, which isn’t eyebrow raising at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/didnt-like-voyager-you-would-have-if-it-had-more-white-males/661343.md?page=7)