# Dies HIV cause AIDS? - Prove it - leave opinion at home **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2003, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280 "2003-12-16T07:31:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mhernan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mhernan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mhernan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/1 "2003-12-16T07:31:21Z")
The general belief of the public is that the assertion that HIV causes AIDS, yet no person on the planet, scientist or otherwise, has ever seen scientific proof of the assertion . Anthony Fauci (Dir NIAIDS) has stated on a number of occasions that AIDS is the most investigated and researched disease in the history of mankind. The scientific data is overwhelming in its proof that HIV causes AIDS. So where is the proof Mr. Fauci? Prove it? No person will ever post scientifically verifiable proof that HIV causes AIDS. Don’t get in my face, just probe it. No person will ever post in any thread, scientific poof that HIV even exists, to the exclusion of any other organic substance in the universe. Prove me wrong, with proof, preferrably… How many scientists have signed petitions supporting the claim that HIV causes AIDS? Whi is making money in this AIDS policy? Is a scientists signature on a political document scientific proof of any thing except that his name appears in a petition. IS AIDS a disease caused by HIV that can be proven beyon, any political doubt? ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/2 "2003-12-16T12:13:24Z")
This does not seem to be related to a specific column by Cecil, and so is being moved to GREAT DEBATES. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/3 "2003-12-16T12:40:45Z")
Well, enlighten us, please. What do you think causes AIDS? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/4 "2003-12-16T12:57:41Z")
The National Institutes of Health [don’t seem to have any doubt about it.](http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/howhiv.htm) Are you demanding that someone dig up the individual research papers upon which NIH’s conclusions are based? Sounds like a long, boring Google session, to me. With a completely predictable outcome. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/5 "2003-12-16T13:51:05Z")
**Early Out** , judging from the other AIDS kooks who’ve posted here and their cites, _AIDS medications_ cause AIDS. Yeah, I know… ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/6 "2003-12-16T13:54:02Z")
I believe the OP is refering (badly) to some recent theories by individuals like Peter H. Duesberg (not DR) a virologist who claims that it is AZR that causes AIDS, not HIV. [http://www.duesberg.com/](http://www.duesberg.com/) [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/sim-explorer/explore-artists/-/artist-name/books/Duesberg%2C%20Peter%20H./102-6831379-5826551](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/sim-explorer/explore-artists/-/artist-name/books/Duesberg%2C%20Peter%20H./102-6831379-5826551) [http://www.aegis.com/news/sc/1996/SC960305.html](http://www.aegis.com/news/sc/1996/SC960305.html) Contrary to the OP’s opinion, he seems to be one of the few opponents of current AIDS/HIV theory. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/7 "2003-12-16T13:54:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jayjay \* > \*\ ***Early Out** , judging from the other AIDS kooks who’ve posted here and their cites, _AIDS medications_ cause AIDS. > > Yeah, I know… \*\* Sort of like the theory that trailer parks cause tornadoes, eh? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/8 "2003-12-16T14:00:36Z")
Seems like a pretty simple assertion to test: is there any record of anyone dying of AIDS who was _not_ HIV positive? Show us that patient, **Mhernan** ; otherwise, it is _your_ opinion which should be left at home. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/9 "2003-12-16T14:01:49Z")
Is that you [David Resnick](http://www.aegis.com/news/bar/2000/BR000306.html). I’d point out that there is a [huge](http://www.niaid.nih.gov/newsroom/focuson/hiv00/MACS+WIHS.htm), [amounts](http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/evidhiv.htm), of [information](http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/cohen/cohen.shl), available if you were so inclined to take more than 30 seconds to research the issue. So, do you have any actual evidence to discount the [Durban Declarations](http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v406/n6791/full/406015a0_fs.html)? ---
**Author:** ![In\_Conceivable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4bbf92/32.png) [@In\_Conceivable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Conceivable)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/10 "2003-12-16T14:22:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mhernan \* > \*\* Don’t get in my face, just probe it. > \*\* 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/11 "2003-12-16T14:46:29Z")
I’m going to need a #4 probe, stat! ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/12 "2003-12-16T15:08:46Z")
From SciAm’s “[Ask the experts](http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=000DA12D-772F-1C71-9EB7809EC588F2D7&catID=3).” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/13 "2003-12-16T15:38:12Z")
For those who may be experiencing _déja vu_ all over again, you are right that this battle was recently waged in the [HIV Test bogus, says PCR inventor](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=208980) thread. (I provide the link solely to reduce the number of searches on the topic and not to stifle this discussion.) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/14 "2003-12-16T16:00:30Z")
It’s never a discussion, **tom**. It always comes down to a couple of cranks metaphorically shouting ignorant defiance against the flood of cites supporting an HIV/AIDS connection. Why this particular group of people is so emotionally invested in a non-HIV cause for AIDS I still don’t quite understand… ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/15 "2003-12-16T16:23:52Z")
So all people with AIDS have HIV. There is a carefully researched method by which it can be seen that HIV leads to AIDS (c.f. **SentientMeat** ’s Sci American article). Therefore it is obvious that AIDS is caused by Influenza viruses with frikin’ lasers on their heads. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/16 "2003-12-16T16:32:42Z")
> [@](#): > > No person will ever post in any thread, scientific poof that HIV even exists, to the exclusion of any other organic substance in the universe. Prove me wrong, with proof, preferrably… Just want to point out to the OP that your approach doesn’t fly around here. It’s not up to us to prove that HIV exists (although to state that it doesn’t is a thoroughly ridiculous claim), or that HIV infection results in AIDS. It’s up to you to prove that it doesn’t, since that apparently is your assertion. When come back, bring your proof. And pie. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/17 "2003-12-16T16:43:13Z")
Most of the quasi-ignorant folks that play fast and loose with the concept of “proof” around here should read this next link: [Description of Scientific Laws, Theories and their relation to “Proof”](http://www.carlton.paschools.pa.sk.ca/chemical/Proof/default.htm) ---
**Author:** ![TaxGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@TaxGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TaxGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/18 "2003-12-16T16:56:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fear Itself \* > \*\*Seems like a pretty simple assertion to test: is there any record of anyone dying of AIDS who was _not_ HIV positive? Show us that patient, **Mhernan** ; otherwise, it is _your_ opinion which should be left at home. \*\* Me playing Duesberg’s advocate here: When someone dies of one of thirty-odd diseases (e.g., kaposi’s sarcome) and has HIV in his blood, we say he died of AIDS. When one dies of on of the thirty-odd diseases and does not have HIV in his blood, we say he died of the disease. So, no, no one has ever died of AIDS that was not HIV positive, but that is because AIDS is defined as (1) having one of a list of thiry-odd diseases and (2) being HIV positive. It’s only a definitional thing. Also, (me talking here) I think the OP does raise a somewhat valid point. Duesberg claims that every time a scientific paper says “HIV causes AIDS” the footnote on that sentence refers only to someone else saying “HIV causes AIDS.” So, he says there’s no original study that actually conclusively proves it, and he says that the HIV-AIDS connection fails the classic tests of epidemiological causality. So, even though we all “know” that HIV causes AIDS, it’s a valid question to ask if anyone can find the study that does indeed prove that such is the case. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/19 "2003-12-16T17:00:30Z")
Fear Itself, It’s impossible to point out any person who has died of AIDS that was not HIV postitive. No matter what side you are on the definition of AIDS is circular. In order to be diagnosed with AIDS one MUST be HIV positive. There are quite a few cases of people with a collapsed immune system that test HIV negative but, instead of calling it AIDS it is called ICL (idiopathic CD4+ T cell lymphocytopenia IIRC) Example of the circular argument: TB + HIV = AIDS TB - HIV = TB This holds true for any other AIDS defining illness ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280/20 "2003-12-16T17:13:23Z")
There must be numerous controlled studies that compare the survival rate (death rate) of HIV-positive people, because that’s how you test drugs: give medication to half the infected people, and placebo to other half. If one of both of those groups had a survival rate comparable to uninfected people, surely they would have noticed? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dies-hiv-cause-aids-prove-it-leave-opinion-at-home/219280.md?page=2)