# Difference between "gaslighting" and having one's beliefs/assumptions challenged **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379 "2020-01-13T23:42:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/1 "2020-01-13T23:42:22Z")
In a thread a few weeks ago, one poster complained about “gaslighting” in the transgender debate issue, while another poster denied that there was gaslighting going on. (Not mentioning names, since this isn’t a Pit call-out thread). In an ideal world, everyone would be operating off of the exact same facts, logic, and also interpret reality the same way. But people of course do not. So what I wanted to ask was, where exactly does the boundary lie between “gaslighting” someone, and legit differences in debating viewpoints? If Flat-Earthers or Moon-landing-hoaxers or anti-vaxxers continuously pushed their obviously false viewpoints onto society, relentlessly, we would rightfully consider that gaslighting. But on an issue like transgenderism, for instance - (where you have one side that firmly believes that there are men and women and you can’t “truly” become the other gender, and then you have one side that believes that you can indeed switch over and that there are more than two genders,) who is truly gaslighting the other? Is it “gaslighting” if you push for your own side relentlessly and repeatedly? If your beliefs or assumptions are being undermined by others, when is it you being gaslit, and when is it just your wrong beliefs being rightfully challenged? (Not a thread only about transgenderism, but all sorts of other issues as well. Is someone who believes the Earth is billions of years old being gaslit by people who continuously tell him/her that the Earth is only 6,000? Is an atheist being gaslit by people who tell him God exists? Is a Trump voter who thinks Trump is fantastic being gaslit by people who tell him Trump is the worst president ever? etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/2 "2020-01-13T23:55:41Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If Flat-Earthers or Moon-landing-hoaxers or anti-vaxxers continuously pushed their obviously false viewpoints onto society, relentlessly, we would rightfully consider that gaslighting. Not as I understand the term, assuming their beliefs are sincere. Which is not necessarily a safe assumption for everyone. > **[Gaslighting](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting)** > > This is an accepted version of this page > > Gaslighting is a colloquialism, defined as manipulating someone into questioning their own perception of reality. The expression, which derives from the title of the 1944 film Gaslight, became popular in the mid-2010s. Merriam-Webster cites deception of one's memory, perception of reality, or mental stability. Some mental health experts have expressed concern that the term has been used too broadly. In 2022, the Washington Post reported that it had be... ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/3 "2020-01-14T00:01:15Z")
I have not taken gaslighting to mean what you imply. As such I have no answer. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/4 "2020-01-14T00:41:27Z")
Gaslighting is when you try to get someone to deny what they know is true so they doubt themselves and are easier to manipulate and control. Debate is an honest criticism of your opinions and someone elses. Totally different. Gaslighting would be if I said ‘you never made a post about gaslighting on 1/13, you’re crazy’. not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/5 "2020-01-14T00:57:31Z")
Gaslighting involves deceit. Honest debate does not. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/6 "2020-01-14T01:14:04Z")
I think you need to define gaslighting if you want this to be a good discussion. I use “gaslighting” to describe the phenomenon whereby Person A points out something that is very obvious to them and Person B responds with a rabid denial of that very obvious thing, even when that obvious thing is sitting right in the room with them. The goal is to make Person A question their sanity so they hesitate before speaking up in the future. Person A: Can you stop farting, please? Person B: I’m not \<_farting noise_\> farting. I don’t know what you are \<_farting noise_\> talking about. \<_farting noise_\> Maybe you’re \<_farting noise_\> hearing things again. You know how sensitive to \<_farting noise_\> noises and smells you are. Person A: Stop trying to gaslight me, you farting jerk. I used “gaslighting” in the aforementioned thread because for much of the thread I was scolded after confessing to having negative feelings about a suspected edgelord calling himself a woman and then a poster who had been a part of that condemnation denied there would be a problem with someone having negative feelings about a suspected edgelord calling himself a woman. It felt “gaslighty” because it seemed like that poster was pretending my experience in that thread didn’t exist and that I was thus crazy. But we realized there had been a big miscommunication between us and we kissed and made up. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/7 "2020-01-14T01:32:05Z")
Double secret gaslighting is when you gaslight about the meaning of gaslighting. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/8 "2020-01-14T01:36:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > IIf Flat-Earthers or Moon-landing-hoaxers or anti-vaxxers continuously pushed their obviously false viewpoints onto society, relentlessly, we would rightfully consider that gaslighting. No, you would not rightfully consider that gaslighting, because relentlessness is not a defining or even an important feature of gaslighting. Go read [an article about it](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting) and come back when you’re ready to construct a thesis based on correct assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/9 "2020-01-14T01:39:58Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Double secret gaslighting is when you gaslight about the meaning of gaslighting. Only a crazy person would think that. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/10 "2020-01-14T01:46:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Only a crazy person would think that. You’ve read my posts here.😉 ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/11 "2020-01-14T02:07:12Z")
I think there are people that gaslight, but they aren’t exactly lying. They just have a fluid relationship with reality, and decide the truth is whatever they decide it is. So they decide they didn’t say that, or that they didn’t do that, or whatever. It’s infuriating and it can make you doubt yourself because they don’t seem to be lying. They just convince themselves the truth is what they want it to be. This very rarely happens in this format. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/12 "2020-01-14T02:57:10Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Gaslighting involves deceit. Honest debate does not. I agree that this is the key point. Gaslighting is an attempt to manipulate somebody’s beliefs by giving them information the gaslighter knows is false. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/13 "2020-01-14T03:03:25Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > You’ve read my posts here.😉 You’ve never posted here. … and so forth. I gather for the purposes of debate, “gaslighting” isn’t: “_You’re crazy for drawing that conclusion from that evidence. The evidence really suggests such-and-such._” …but more like… _“You’re only imagining the evidence you say you’re basing your conclusion on. I don’t see any such evidence. It doesn’t exist.”_ I’m just now watching a _Frontline_ episode about climate-change deniers. The mental Kevlar they’ve built for themselves is frustratingly impressive. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/14 "2020-01-14T03:13:41Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I think there are people that gaslight, but they aren’t exactly lying. They just have a fluid relationship with reality, and decide the truth is whatever they decide it is. So they decide they didn’t say that, or that they didn’t do that, or whatever. It’s infuriating and it can make you doubt yourself because they don’t seem to be lying. They just convince themselves the truth is what they want it to be. My parents are experts in this kind of gaslighting. I’ll bring up something shitty they did to us kids back in the day (something that can always be corroborated by someone else), and they will always deny it happened the way I said it did. “We slapped you guys, but we never made anyone’s nose bleed. That’s ridiculous!”. “Sure, we whupped you, but never with a broom handle. You’re always making up crazy stories!” If my siblings didn’t back me up every time, I probably would be fooled into thinking I’m crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/15 "2020-01-14T03:14:49Z")
Gaslighting is more like “you didn’t experience what you think you experienced.” It’s come up in the vein of “you weren’t raped/assaulted because you actually consented to whatever happened” or “you weren’t subjected to racist/bigoted behavior Even though you think you saw it because you don’t know what was truly in the heart of the person who did that.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/16 "2020-01-14T03:14:52Z")
Gaslighting is, as noting above, involves giving information that is known to be false and pretending it isn’t. Stating that another poster is gaslighting is calling them a liar. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/17 "2020-01-14T03:27:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree that this is the key point. Gaslighting is an attempt to manipulate somebody’s beliefs by giving them information the gaslighter knows is false. Although gaslighting involves falsehoods and attempts to manipulate other people’s beliefs, I don’t think this post quite gets at the true essence of gaslighting. If I claim there’s a unicorn in my bedroom, then post a fake or manipulated photo of a unicorn in my bedroom, that’s giving others information I know is false–“lying” or “hoaxing”–but it isn’t necessarily “gaslighting”. Gaslighting is if I play a prank and sneak a horse into _your_ bedroom, then stand there and look you right in the eye and say “Horse? What horse? There’s never been a horse in your bedroom”. Possibly while the horse is still standing there whinnying and nuzzling my hand for another piece of apple. (I would also say that merely saying “Whoa, someone snuck a _horse_ into your BEDROOM? Wow, man, that’s crazy! Uh, but that totally wasn’t me who did that!” is also not really “gaslighting”.) It’s not just making you believe something untrue, it’s making you think _you’re_ the crazy one. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/18 "2020-01-14T03:42:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree that this is the key point. Gaslighting is an attempt to manipulate somebody’s beliefs by giving them information **the gaslighter knows is false**. I think it is important to look at it from the victim’s side, though - otherwise this is a bit like saying, “Verbal abuse is insulting someone in a way that the insulter knows is wrong.” From the perspective of the abuser, he/she may think they’re not being abusive, they’re dishing out what the recipient needs to hear. And from the victim’s standpoint, they may consider hurtful words hurtful regardless of whether the insulter considers their words right or wrong. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/19 "2020-01-14T04:06:07Z")
> [@](#): > > I think it is important to look at it from the victim’s side, though - otherwise this is a bit like saying, “Verbal abuse is insulting someone in a way that the insulter knows is wrong.” From the perspective of the abuser, he/she may think they’re not being abusive, they’re dishing out what the recipient needs to hear. And from the victim’s standpoint, they may consider hurtful words hurtful regardless of whether the insulter considers their words right or wrong. This is false. The abuser knows they are lying. They are not trying to reason the target into believing their lies. They are trying to rob the target of any sense of truth so that any statement seems as believable as the next. In a normal debate we can point back historically and say “ah, you said thus, and I responded thus.” The gaslighter covers not only his rhetorical tracks but our own, trying to pretend that we reasoned ourselves into this place in some other way than we did. Oceania is at war with Eurasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia. You’re to forget anything you heard to the contrary, and you’ll comply because we’ve changed our story so much that you’re not confident what’s authoritative. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/20 "2020-01-14T16:12:05Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Gaslighting is, as noting above, involves giving information that is known to be false and pretending it isn’t. > > Stating that another poster is gaslighting is calling them a liar. Is that board policy? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379.md?page=2)