# Difference between "gaslighting" and having one's beliefs/assumptions challenged **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379 "2020-01-13T23:42:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/21 "2020-01-14T16:51:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In an ideal world, everyone would be operating off of the exact same facts, logic, and also interpret reality the same way. But people of course do not. So what I wanted to ask was, where exactly does the boundary lie between “gaslighting” someone, and legit differences in debating viewpoints? The point of the original film was the victim of gaslighting was actively being convinced that she was insane, by virtue of challenging her perception of reality (that the lights were dimming.) It was an active, targeted campaign of psychological torture against a specific person. The term suddenly became popular about, I dunno, seven or eight years ago in the manner such things do these days (“ghosting” suddenly became a thing just before that.) Originally the term was borrowed as a way of describing psychological manipulating in relationships, usually romantic ones. Since then, though, it has come to mean pretty much anything; in a short Google search I found the term used to describe almost any negative behaviour in a relationship, including being too quiet, being too loud, changing the subject, arguing, not arguing, and a dozen other things, which is unfortunate because it ruins the word of value in describing what it actually is. Expanding the term to describe people arguing over different opinions, or to make the term synonymous with “lying,” is really watering the term down to meaninglessness. Of COURSE people have different viewpoints of reality, or else we wouldn’t have anything to argue about. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/22 "2020-01-14T17:27:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Expanding the term to describe people arguing over different opinions, or to make the term synonymous with “lying,” is really watering the term down to meaninglessness. Of COURSE people have different viewpoints of reality, or else we wouldn’t have anything to argue about. But consider the following hypothetical (which I’m sure plays out in real life): Trump voter: “Trump is the greatest president ever, Trump has done nothing wrong.” Trump opponent: “Trump is the most corrupt president ever, terrible scandals, 13,000 documented lies, got Americans killed, tried to get Ukraine to investigate Biden, was helped out by Russians,” Trump voter: **“Trump has done nothing wrong.”** Assuming both sides are absolutely sincere in their beliefs, is one getting gaslit here? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/23 "2020-01-14T17:28:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The point of the original film was the victim of gaslighting was actively being convinced that she was insane, by virtue of challenging her perception of reality (that the lights were dimming.) It was an active, targeted campaign of psychological torture against a. “Gaslighting” is not a synonym of “lying” , but deception is a necessary condition of gaslighting - it’s not gaslighting if I don’t perceive the lights are dimming, it’s gaslighting if I know they are dimming and try to convince the victim that they aren’t. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/24 "2020-01-14T17:50:23Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Assuming both sides are absolutely sincere in their beliefs, is one getting gaslit here? No. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/25 "2020-01-14T18:16:35Z")
I was under the impression that gaslighting also tended to involve actually altering the world and then claiming that the altered state was always the case, thus the better to crush the victim’s perception of reality. Which I suppose would make Trump’s sharpie shenanigans re: hurricanes a form of attempted gaslighting, give or take the fact the Trump is such a bumfuck incompetent that nobody was fooled for even a second. And that his intent wasn’t to damage other people’s sanity, but rather to protect his own damaged sanity. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/26 "2020-01-14T18:21:56Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I was under the impression that gaslighting also tended to involve actually altering the world and then claiming that the altered state was always the case, thus the better to crush the victim’s perception of reality. I think the “perception of reality” part is the one necessary element. It’s when someone tries to convince someone that they can’t trust their own perceptions, either because their senses are too faulty (“you’re too sensitive”) or because they are insufficiently perceptive (“you don’t understand what actually happened”). ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/27 "2020-01-14T18:44:55Z")
It’s not about actually making someone think they’re crazy. That’s a tall order, (although I think that’s the original meaning of the term). Really, it’s about distorting the frame of discourse to avoid addressing an argument. It’s often done with the types of phrases which **Acsenray** mentions above: “you’re just being too sensitive,” “you don’t understand what actually happened,” etc. Fox News does it when they say about Trump: “What are the Democrats so upset about? Presidents have _always_ done that.” It doesn’t have to be a lie, but it often is–or at least is deceptive and dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/28 "2020-01-14T18:53:06Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But consider the following hypothetical (which I’m sure plays out in real life): > > Trump voter: “Trump is the greatest president ever, Trump has done nothing wrong.” > > Trump opponent: “Trump is the most corrupt president ever, terrible scandals, 13,000 documented lies, got Americans killed, tried to get Ukraine to investigate Biden, was helped out by Russians,” > > Trump voter: **“Trump has done nothing wrong.”** > Assuming both sides are absolutely sincere in their beliefs, is one getting gaslit here? This is not really a valid example of _gaslighting_. Read my post above. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/29 "2020-01-14T19:15:28Z")
[QUOTE=every other poster in this thread] Not as I understand the term, assuming their beliefs are sincere. Which is not necessarily a safe assumption for everyone. … Gaslighting involves deceit. Honest debate does not. … Gaslighting is an attempt to manipulate somebody’s beliefs by giving them information the gaslighter knows is false. … Gaslighting is, as noting above, involves giving information that is known to be false and pretending it isn’t. … The point of the original film was the victim of gaslighting was actively being convinced that she was insane, by virtue of challenging her perception of reality (that the lights were dimming.) It was an active, targeted campaign of psychological torture against a specific person. [/QUOTE] > [@Velocity](#): > > Assuming both sides are absolutely sincere in their beliefs, is one getting gaslit here? _Seriously?_ ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/30 "2020-01-14T19:24:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Is that board policy? Board policy would be up to the mods not me and could be brought up on ATMB if you desired. GD is not the forum for that. I merely describe that while not all lying is gaslighting, all gaslighting involves lying, and the accusation is calling someone a liar. Go from there. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/31 "2020-01-14T20:06:40Z")
As **Rick Jay** said, I always thought it was an attempt to manipulate reality in order to convince the victim that they’re nuts. Even if its meaning has broadened, reading this thread convinces me that there is certainly no general agreement on what it actually means. For example, on Sunday, Putin’s puppet tweeted that it was snowing in DC when the temperature was 52 deg. Is that gaslighting? Did he actually believe it? Did anyone? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/32 "2020-01-14T20:21:35Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > It’s not about actually making someone think they’re crazy. That’s a tall order, (although I think that’s the original meaning of the term). > > Really, it’s about distorting the frame of discourse to avoid addressing an argument. It’s often done with the types of phrases which **Acsenray** mentions above: “you’re just being too sensitive,” “you don’t understand what actually happened,” etc. I’m not I’m sold on the claim that “gaslighting” has lost its original meaning of deliberate attempts to attack one’s confidence in their understanding of reality, and changed to just mean crappy argument. Wait, are you gaslighting me? > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > As **Rick Jay** said, I always thought it was an attempt to manipulate reality in order to convince the victim that they’re nuts. Even if its meaning has broadened, reading this thread convinces me that there is certainly no general agreement on what it actually means. > > For example, on Sunday, Putin’s puppet tweeted that it was snowing in DC when the temperature was 52 deg. Is that gaslighting? Did he actually believe it? Did anyone? As I hinted in my own comment about Trump, gaslighting can’t work if the gaslighter has no credibility. Before you can shake somebody’s confidence in reality, they have to believe that you are credible when you talk about reality. (Unless take the approach of covertly altering reality around them, that is.) ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/33 "2020-01-14T20:47:21Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m not I’m sold on the claim that “gaslighting” has lost its original meaning of deliberate attempts to attack one’s confidence in their understanding of reality, and changed to just mean crappy argument. > > Wait, are you gaslighting me? > > As I hinted in my own comment about Trump, gaslighting can’t work if the gaslighter has no credibility. Before you can shake somebody’s confidence in reality, they have to believe that you are credible when you talk about reality. (Unless take the approach of covertly altering reality around them, that is.) Well, if that’s its only meaning, then its frequent usage isn’t justified. I just don’t see people deliberately creating schemes to make other people question their own sanity–except on TV and in movies. It might be something that might happen privately between two individuals in a dysfunctional relationship, but not in public. Certainly not on a message board. So my assumption is that the term has acquired a secondary meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/34 "2020-01-14T20:59:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I use “gaslighting” to describe the phenomenon whereby Person A points out something that is very obvious to them and Person B responds with a rabid denial of that very obvious thing, even when that obvious thing is sitting right in the room with them. The goal is to make Person A question their sanity so they hesitate before speaking up in the future. > > Person A: Can you stop farting, please? > > Person B: I’m not \<_farting noise_\> farting. I don’t know what you are \<_farting noise_\> talking about. \<_farting noise_\> Maybe you’re \<_farting noise_\> hearing things again. You know how sensitive to \<_farting noise_\> noises and smells you are. > > Person A: Stop trying to gaslight me, you farting jerk. Don’t you have to set the farts on fire for it to be gaslighting? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/35 "2020-01-14T21:03:52Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Well, if that’s its only meaning, then its frequent usage isn’t justified. I just don’t see people deliberately creating schemes to make other people question their own sanity–except on TV and in movies. It might be something that might happen privately between two individuals in a dysfunctional relationship, but not in public. Certainly not on a message board. > > So my assumption is that the term has acquired a secondary meaning. My assumption is that people are just using the word wrong. Call me a purist, but if people using words wrong automatically changed their meanings, then call me an echidna. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/36 "2020-01-14T21:21:36Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > As I hinted in my own comment about Trump, gaslighting can’t work if the gaslighter has no credibility. Before you can shake somebody’s confidence in reality, they have to believe that you are credible when you talk about reality. (Unless take the approach of covertly altering reality around them, that is.) Arguably, Trump has gaslit the fuck out of all of his base and a number of people on the center-right because they are willing to grant him the requisite amount of credibility. That is, if it counts when people voluntarily participate in their own gaslighting. I think it does count. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/37 "2020-01-14T21:30:43Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Arguably, Trump has gaslit the fuck out of all of his base and a number of people on the center-right because they are willing to grant him the requisite amount of credibility. > > That is, if it counts when people voluntarily participate in their own gaslighting. I think it does count. Hmm, does it count as a successful gaslighting if the person simply accepts the new reality rather than questioning their sanity? “Oh, you say the lights have always been this dim? Okay! So, what’s for dinner?” I’d think an actual gaslighter would be disappointed. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/38 "2020-01-14T21:42:32Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > For example, on Sunday, Putin’s puppet tweeted that it was snowing in DC when the temperature was 52 deg. Is that gaslighting? No, that’s just lying. Gaslighting would be later claiming that he never said anything about snow. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/39 "2020-01-14T21:49:49Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > As I hinted in my own comment about Trump, gaslighting can’t work if the gaslighter has no credibility. Before you can shake somebody’s confidence in reality, they have to believe that you are credible when you talk about reality. (Unless take the approach of covertly altering reality around them, that is.) Trump has his base believing that video evidence of him saying something that he denies to have ever said is nothing more than librul propaganda. They are voluntary victims of gaslighting. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379/40 "2020-01-14T21:50:57Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Hmm, does it count as a successful gaslighting if the person simply accepts the new reality rather than questioning their sanity? I’m probably going overboard overthinking this, but I don’t think the the target has to question their sanity as long as the goal of altering their reality is achieved. > [@](#): > > I’d think an actual gaslighter would be disappointed. Again, I don’t think that’s a requirement. But Trump seems pretty happy. “Shoot a guy on 5th avenue, etc”. He’s pulled off a mighty gaslighting and he’s pleased about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-gaslighting-and-having-ones-beliefs-assumptions-challenged/846379.md?page=3)