# Difference between "shojo", "onnanoko", and "musume" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 22, 2013, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-shojo-onnanoko-and-musume/653616 "2013-03-22T07:23:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-shojo-onnanoko-and-musume/653616/1 "2013-03-22T07:23:23Z")
Three Japanese words that mean “girl”, but with considerably different connotations. (I figure there’s a reason there’s never been a pop idol group called “Morning Shojo”.) AFAIK, the limit for shojo is just before the age of majority (16-ish), while onnanoko is…well, it derives from the word for “woman”, but…feh. Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-shojo-onnanoko-and-musume/653616/2 "2013-03-22T12:36:05Z")
One thing that pops out at me is that in English, the word “girl” has a primary meaning of an underage female, but it can mean any female in certain contexts. For example, you could say that, “My little brother and I played bridge with grandma and Aunt Bessie. The girls won.” You aren’t saying that your grandma is literally under 18 or some other specific age of maturity. You can do the same thing with the word “boy”. In much formal writing in the US, a “girl” means any female under 18 and any female who is 18 is automatically a woman. For example, “Two 17 year old girls and an 18 year old woman, all sisters, were arrested yesterday for spraypainting ‘Billy Johnson sucks’ on the only bridge out of town.” The fact that they are social peers doesn’t change this in formal writing. Does this concept apply to any of the Japanese words? ---
**Author:** ![Hokkaido\_Brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d26b3c/32.png) [@Hokkaido\_Brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hokkaido_Brit)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-shojo-onnanoko-and-musume/653616/3 "2013-03-22T12:38:48Z")
shojo is a young girl. onna no ko is simply a girl. musume is a daughter. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-shojo-onnanoko-and-musume/653616/4 "2013-03-22T15:42:00Z")
_onnanoko_ has a very wide range of usage, and can refer to babies or young women. It’s pretty standard for referring to babies and young girls. It sounds a bit informal when used to refer to a teenage girl. It sounds overly familiar when referring to college age women (e.g. mostly used in the context of going out with a girl), and can be considered derogatory when used for women older than that. _shojo_ is more specific, usually refers to girls in her puberty through teenage years. (Wikipedia says age 7-18.) For this age group, it’s more formal term than _onna no ko_ - it’s commonly used in writing (including newspaper articles), but not very common in everyday speech, except as parts of established phrases (e.g. shoujo manga). _musume_ can mean “daughter”, of any age. But it’s also used as an informal/familair term to mean “young woman.” (These are just my gut feeling, aided by [this dictionary](http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/thsrs/4848/m0u/%E5%B0%91%E5%A5%B3/).) ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-shojo-onnanoko-and-musume/653616/5 "2013-03-22T15:45:19Z")
p.s. I think in formal writing, a girl 6 yrs or younger is _joji_, 7 through 18 is _shoujo_, and older would be _josei_. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-shojo-onnanoko-and-musume/653616/6 "2013-03-22T16:08:07Z")
> [@DKW](#): > > Three Japanese words that mean “girl”, but with considerably different connotations. (I figure there’s a reason there’s never been a pop idol group called “Morning Shojo”.) > > AFAIK, the limit for shojo is just before the age of majority (16-ish), while onnanoko is…well, it derives from the word for “woman”, but…feh. Anyone? Ironically considering OP, I believe you are using the Yiddish expression “feh” incorrectly. It is used to indicate utter disgust and revulsion with a statement or situation, literally or metaphorically. Unless that’s what you wanted to say. ---
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-shojo-onnanoko-and-musume/653616/7 "2013-03-23T09:56:21Z")
Nice insights, thanks. Yeah, I figured there was nuance to it, as there is to pretty much everything else about the Japanese language (a practical necessity due in no small part to the lack of cuss words, but that’s another issue). Just another little question…why “mecha musume”? Y’know, the style of artwork with massive war machines portrayed as girls. I doubt anyone considered them daughters of anything. Leo - Look, I have trouble remembering the difference between “shoot style” and “stiff work”, I am _not_ getting into a debate over this, a’ight? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-shojo-onnanoko-and-musume/653616/8 "2013-03-23T14:48:57Z")
> [@DKW](#): > > … > Leo - Look, I have trouble remembering the difference between “shoot style” and “stiff work”, I am _not_ getting into a debate over this, a’ight? 🙂 🙂 You’re already ahead of me here, because I haven’t a guess about what those two phrases mean. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-shojo-onnanoko-and-musume/653616/9 "2013-03-27T21:35:15Z")
> [@DKW](#): > > Just another little question…why “mecha musume”? Y’know, the style of artwork with massive war machines portrayed as girls. I doubt anyone considered them daughters of anything. As I think I said, “musume” can mean “girl” in a certain context without the connotation of “daughter”. “Onna no ko” is a phrase, not a single word; “mecha onna no ko” sounds really awkward. “Mecha shojo” doesn’t have the right ring to it, as “shojo” has more of a connotation of an innocent teenage girl. “Mecha onna” brings to mind an older woman. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difference-between-shojo-onnanoko-and-musume/653616/10 "2013-03-28T14:58:07Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > p.s. I think in formal writing, a girl 6 yrs or younger is _joji_, 7 through 18 is _shoujo_, and older would be _josei_. Josei and the Nekomimi’s