# Different Cultures, Different Swords: Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 2, 2001, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669 "2001-08-02T17:20:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tsunamisurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@tsunamisurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsunamisurfer)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/1 "2001-08-02T17:20:07Z")
Allow me to start with an admittedly shaky premise: fighting is fighting. Yet, instead of converging toward a universal standard, swords throughout history seem to have varied considerably in form and function. I’m talking about the Gladiator’s sword, the Scottish Claymore, the Japanese samurai sword, the rapier, the scimitar, the U.S. Civil War sabre, etc. etc. etc. Obviously, aesthetic considerations are part of good swordsmaking and, yes, swords are used differently and have different martial (and perhaps ceremonial) rituals associated with them, whether as point-thrusting or slashing/chopping tools. But why such varied styles? Was the Claymore’s sheer size meant to intimidate? Why not outfit your men with Claymores if they are to do battle with men carrying, say, epees–or vice versa? Did any one style confer advantage over another? (Not to say the samuri ever crossed blades with, say, men wielding scimitars.) ---
**Author:** ![Akatsukami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Akatsukami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akatsukami)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/2 "2001-08-02T17:46:38Z")
Not something that can be dealt in the length of a single SDMB GQ post. However, where we’re talking actual, I-fully-intend-to-kill-you bloodshed, yes, style of combat matters greatly WRT style of sword. Consider, _e.g._, the _gladius_ versus the _katana_, and the way in which one is intended to _use_ a _gladius_ versus the way in which one is intended to use a _katana_ (which is, in origin, a _cavalry_ weapon). Swords weren’t the _only_ pre-gunpowder weapon, either. In fact, when someone could afford one, they were often considered a secondary arm (a synonym for _bushido_ is _kyuba no michi_ – “the way of horse and bow”. Swords? Not mentioned. There is indeed a Japanese tale in which the protagonist thinks, “At least my opponent _only_ has a sword”). ---
**Author:** ![Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milton_De_La_Warre)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/3 "2001-08-02T17:48:16Z")
It depends on several things: 1. Available swordmaking technology 2. Style (circumstances) of use 3. Fashion 4. Sword-sharpening technology, skills, and abilities If memory serves me right, Caesar in the Gallic Wars mentioned that the Roman short swords (gladii) were better than the longer Gallic weapons because the the Gauls had to raise their arms to deliver the slashing blows that their weapons (and to an extent, flamboyant culture) required. This exposed their sides and underarms just as they closed with their enemy, making them a relatively easy mark for a disciplined Roman gladius thrust. So the Gallic sword is good for individual “heroic” combat, where the gladius is literally the weapon of choice for the rank and file. A claymore is OK for the battlefield, but would be hard to lug around constantly and whip out in a flash, unlike a samurai’s katana. The katanas were noted for their keen edges and ability to make clean cuts with almost no effort, where the heavy European swords (claymores, Landsknecht katzenbalgers, etc.) could cleave through light armor. Rapiers are like katanas and the middle eastrn swords (sahsmirs?) in that they were weapons that could be worn with civil as well as military costume, and could be used in (semi-) civil settings as well as wartime. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/4 "2001-08-02T17:50:44Z")
Some, like the Claymore, are used to chop through heavy metal armor. They do damage as much from impact as sharpness. Samurai swords do their primary damage from sharpness, rather than impact. The armor in their culture was intended to protect from arrows, & has many non-metallic parts, so this type of blade is best. Others, like the Roman Gladius are short, stabbing weapons, for close-in fighting. Curved sword are intended for use from horseback. Swung, the curve makes a backhand blow moe effective. As to hilts, it varies. Cup, or bell hilts, like the Claymore’s, are to protect the hand. But they can make gripping the blade a clumsy affair. Most swords have simpler grips. My answer is broad, but I hope it touches the major points. I’m sure you’ll get more answers. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/5 "2001-08-02T18:25:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor \* > **Swung, the curve makes a backhand blow moe effective.** [list][list][list] **Love your accent** [list]🙂 ---
**Author:** ![KeithB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@KeithB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KeithB)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/6 "2001-08-02T18:39:02Z")
This link should answer the OP perfectly: [http://www.thehaca.com/essays/nobest.htm](http://www.thehaca.com/essays/nobest.htm) I found it at [http://www.theonering.net](http://www.theonering.net), the best place to find out anything about Tolkien and the new movie. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/7 "2001-08-02T19:19:05Z")
Fascinating article **KeithB** ; thanks for the link. I guess it’s time to mention _Highlander_ One thing about the movie was that the characters fought with different kinds of swords. Sean Connery used a Japanese-style sword as I remember (a Katana?). The main character used a sword that looked rather light, in comparison to the “Kergan” who used a really heavy looking sword. Is there any sword that would be best for one-on-one, no armor dueling? ---
**Author:** ![slortar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@slortar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slortar)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/8 "2001-08-02T19:37:33Z")
God, there must be a huge number of essays on this subject. I remember a fairly well-reasoned one from The Book of the Sword (can’t remember the author off-hand–it was a 19th century book) promoting the rapier as the most efficient for one-on-one unarmored dueling, due to its lightness, speed and the relatively low force required to generate a penetrating blow. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/9 "2001-08-02T20:52:05Z")
HACA is a font is ignorance, stupidity, and misinformation. Trust nothing from [thehaca.com](http://thehaca.com). > [@](#): > > God, there must be a huge number of essays on this subject. I remember a fairly well-reasoned one from The Book of the Sword The Book of the Sword is by Sir Richard Francis Burton. It is an _excellent_ book, though non-fencers may find it rather dry and technical. > [@](#): > > Rapiers are like katanas and the middle eastrn swords (sahsmirs?) in that they were weapons that could be worn with civil as well as military costume, and could be used in (semi-) civil settings as well as wartime. The rapier was _never_ used as a military weapon. It was strictly used for civilian defense, street fighting, and dueling. Nor was it carried by officers in military dress, though most military officers of the 17th and 18th centuries surely could defend themselves with one by virtue of their gentlemanly education. The word itself is a French neologism from the Spanish _espada ropera_, or “dress sword.” > [@](#): > > Some, like the Claymore, are used to chop through heavy metal armor. They do damage as much from impact as sharpness. The claymore is virtually useless against heavy armor, as are all weapons which primarily employ the edge in their techniques. The claymore and the “longsword” were used for _blossfechten_, or shirt-sleeve fighting. > [@](#): > > Is there any sword that would be best for one-on-one, no armor dueling? That would depend entirely on how the practitioner moves and with what kinds of techniques he feels comfortable. There have been several major Western European dueling weapons employed in the past five hundred years, and a host of less important ones. Historical Weapons: _Spada da lato_: Also known as the sidesword, the spada da lato is an early Italian dueling weapon,= whose technique is passed down to us in the works of the fencing master Achille Marozzo. It is a cut-and-thrust weapon: cuts are predominant, but the weapon is light enough and easily controlled enough to employ the point. Its technique is characterized by rapid expansion and contraction of the elbow and wrist. It is a quick weapon, and those who like broad movements and relatively simple footwork are fond of it. Longsword: This two handed weapon was used primarily in Italy and Germany in the 16th century, though its technique persisted long afterwards. Despite its size and length, it is a remarkably graceful weapon when used correctly. With one hand choked all the way up and one hand on the pommel itself, a practitioner does not _swing_ the weapon like a baseball bat, but he _levers_ the cuts by pulling downward on the pommel and pushing forward on the grip. People who like wide stances, heavy arm work, and serious bloodlust tend to gravitate to this weapon. Rapier: There are many, many kinds of rapiers, and even more kinds of techniques. Its technique is more sophisticated than either of the above weapons. It is primarily a cut-and-thrust weapon: the point is almost always preferred, but the weapon is more than heavy enough to deliver vicious wounds with the edge. It appears deceptively light: my two-pound rapier tires me in a real fight in just a few minutes. Italian technique emphasizes low, catlike movements. Spanish rapier technique commands a high center of balance, extremely conservative movement, and surgical point control and patience. Smallsword: Also known as the _epee de court_ or the _epee de ville_, this little gentleman’s weapon is perhaps the highest evolution of the dueling sword. Common in the 18th and 19th centuries, it was an essential part of any dandy’s wardrobe. While often maligned for being a tad on the dainty side, the smallsword is nevertheless remarkably deadly. It takes nerves of steel to be able to close with such a short weapon, especially considering that nearly all of the lines of attack are in the high outside quadrant. The heart. Those who move relatively high above the ground, prefer light weapons, and are naturally soft in their technique do well to learn the smallsword. Classical Weapons: Sabre: Originally a cavalry weapon, the dueling sabre is one of the cruelest swords around. Dueling sabres are essentially 35" straight razors, capable of inflicting horrible edge wounds. I rather like the low stance and the broad, flamboyant edge techniques. When handled badly, two sabreurs look like butchers swatting at each other with thin sticks. But when done well, it is exhilarating. Epee: Perhaps the most conservative weapon of all, the epee employs only point techniques. Lateral movement is nil, and forward and backward movement is minimized. Precise, precise timing and inhuman point control are necessary to make intercepting time attacks essential to epee technique, namely strikes to the hand, wrist, and forearm. Epee duels usually end within seconds. My current favorite weapon and technique is Italian rapier, as it naturally accentuates the best parts of my game, as it were. I am rather short and slender, so I prefer the low stance. I have been told I move like a cat, so I prefer fighting in the round rather than on the _piste_, which the classical weapons require. I like its balance of flamboyance tempered with conservatism, and I am confortable with rapier timing. It is up to each practitioner to find the weapon that bests suits his movement and fighting style. This is one of the benefits of training with an experienced fencing master. MR [Martinez Academy of Arms](http://www.martinez-destreza.com) Secretary, [Association for Historical Fencing](http://www.ahfi.org) ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/10 "2001-08-02T20:59:05Z")
But on Highlander, I’m an expert. 😉 Ramirez (Connery) did indeed use a Katana which Connor (Lambert) took up after he was slain. Before that, Connor had a smallish claymore/largish longsword. The Kurgan (Brown) had a huge snap together broadsword that would no doubt fall apart in battle if it wasn’t swapped offscreen for a solid lookalike, but it sure looked cool. Considering all the kills that Connor (and, in the series, Duncan) had, I’d say the Katana was a clear winner. 🙂 But in reality, I’m not sure. Given that the idea in Highlander is to chop off your opponent’s head, I’d say you’d want something either sharp (katana) or heavy (claymore). Light stabbing type stuff wouldn’t be as useful. And since you’ve got to protect yourself from your opponent, you’re going to want something defensive too, like a shield or main-gauche (I think that what those parrying blades are called, right?) or have your main weapon be maneuverable enough that you can use it for both attack and defense… hmm… looks like the katana’s a good choice after all. That or a chainsaw. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/11 "2001-08-02T21:22:23Z")
Thanks **Maeglin**. So it seems that if there were a highlander-style tournament, you would see fighters with all different kinds of swords. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/12 "2001-08-02T22:21:30Z")
If you really want to have a case of the shutters, consider that the curved blade of the classic light cavalry saber results not from its effectiveness as a slash and cut weapon, but because the curved blade facilitates recovering the weapon while moving a speed after running some poor sod of an infantry man through. Incidentally, it is the light cavalry saber that is curved. The classic European heavy cavalry saber has a straight blade. Look at the weapon carried by the British household cavalry. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/13 "2001-08-02T22:45:54Z")
Technology has a lot to do with it. Swordmaking was a very complex and secret art and sometimes the makers didn’t know why their own methods worked. The laminated construction of Samurai swords has everything to do with the form and properties of the blade. An article in Scientific American tells how a metalurgist and knifemaker recently cracked the secret of Damascus blades. Contrary to what I thought they are not laminated though the finished product looks that way. The blades got their strength from the way vanadium impurities in the Indian made ingots reacted to forging. ---
**Author:** ![tsunamisurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@tsunamisurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsunamisurfer)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2001, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/14 "2001-08-03T01:34:45Z")
Thanks to everyone for help in reducing my ignorance–and thanks for a civil, pleasant discussion. ---
**Author:** ![False\_God](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee7513/32.png) [@False\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/False_God)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2001, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/15 "2001-08-03T13:00:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > \*\* > Sabre: Originally a cavalry weapon, the dueling sabre is one of the cruelest swords around. Dueling sabres are essentially 35" straight razors, capable of inflicting horrible edge wounds. I rather like the low stance and the broad, flamboyant edge techniques. When handled badly, two sabreurs look like butchers swatting at each other with thin sticks. But when done well, it is exhilarating. > > \*\* I’ll second that. I’ve been a sabrist(sabreur, if you prefer) for six years, although I fence all weapons, and for skill reguired, exhilaration and sheer “joy of the blade” there’s nothing that comes close in my mind. Mind you, I had a Russian master, so my technique is perhaps not as “elegant” as the Italian or French, but I still enjoy it immensely. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2001, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/16 "2001-08-03T13:21:52Z")
**Maeglin** - When you say “Claymore”, aren’t you in fact referreing to two seperate types of sword? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve heard the term applied to both the short, basket-hilted slashing sword of the 16th-17th century, and to the 5-foot, two-handed chopping sword of the late middle ages. Is this just the evolution of a single weapon? I’m asking because you mentioned that a claymore is lousy in penetrating armor. I purchased a reproduction of a two-handed one a few years ago (an impressive, if somewhat rough weapon), and considering its back-breaking weight, I can’t think of a better weapon to use against an armored knight. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2001, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/17 "2001-08-03T14:57:02Z")
A basket-hilt broadsword is a basket-hilt broadsword. The claymore is exclusively a two handed weapon that did in fact persist through the 16th and 17th centuries. Despite its weight, it is still poor at penetrating plate and mail, unless used like a spear. No matter what the weight, edged weapons are completely inefficient at cutting through armor. So why haven’t I seen you at fencing? 😉 MR ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2001, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/18 "2001-08-03T15:14:58Z")
How does the Cutlass fit into all this ? I remember having to do ceremonial Cutlass swinging drill and boy does it get tiring after twenty minutes of continuous movement, and that was when I was young and fit. All I can say is that it was a traditional Navy boarding weapon and fairly heavy with it, the trick is to keep it in motion all the time and redirect the weapon as necessary. I would not like to be in the way of one wielded in anger, even if the user were injured in an attack if the Cutlass was still moving it would present a serious danger. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2001, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/19 "2001-08-03T15:35:00Z")
Just like you said, the cutlass is a naval boarding and dueling weapon. My fencing master’s master, Frederic Rohdes, had a long groove in his head gained from a cutlass duel in the German navy when he was 16. Its technique is actually relatively similar to the Italian dueling sabre. MR ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2001, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669/20 "2001-08-03T16:07:14Z")
Cutlasses were said to require less skill to use effectively than the contemporary smallswords, and thus were appropriate weapons for sailors who were, after all, devoted most of their training to tying bowlines and reefing sails, and were only secondarily fighters. I have also heard it claimed that cutlasses require less space to use than smallswords, and were therefore better for fighting on crowded and obstructed decks, but that claim sounds fishy to me. Any of the fencers here care to take a stab at that idea? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/different-cultures-different-swords-why/74669.md?page=2)