Different Cultures, Different Swords: Why?

If you wish to kill a knight in full armor, use a mace or war hammer. Swords, as used in battle by armored knights, were more like metal clubs with crude edges than cutting implements.

BTW, I can think of one instance where the the rapier was issued as a military weapon: Lt. Maynard had them issued to his crews (two vessels) when he went after Edward Teach (AKA Blackbeard). As I understand it, he felt that his men wouldn’t fatigue as quickly as the pirates, and while they might take higher casualties at first, exhaustion would eventually give his men the advantage. Whether or not his reasoning was sound, it worked.

Cutlasses do require less training, to be sure. Anything with a heavy cleaving blade inevitable does. As for space, that is a more complicated issue.

Although combative smallsword duels are usually fought in the round, the smallsword is a perfectly effective weapon on the piste as well. Same as the cutlass: its similarity to the dueling sabre allows it to be wielded quite comfortable on a slender strip. Its short blade and basket hilt render it quite effective for close quarter fighting. Then again, there are numerous sophisticated close-quarter smallsword techniques. Hence the difference in space required is not great, I do not suspect.

I do suspect that the reason is predominantly socio-economic. Smallswords are classy and expensive decorative weapons, cutlasses are not. Enough said.

MR

There are various reasons why swords have different shapes, but most of it is cultural. Note that in this case I count the military as possibly being a different culture then the society in which it exists. To a large extent it also reflects the culture’s feelings about individualism in warfare.

For example, the Roman Gladius was a short sword, which was straight, broad and relatively heavy for it’s length. It also tapered to a sharp point, and many had a second “edge” along the point. The reason this shape is that the Roman legions fought in close order. Each man right next to his neighbor, with a large shield leaving only a “slot” to either side of the soldier. The legionnaire would close in tight ranks and lines with his enemy, counting on his armor and large shield to protect him, and then just thrust the shield in and out of the small gap between his and his neighbor’s shield. The end result was that each legionnaire was not individual at all, but the entire group was very effective. The Romans lauded command and steadfastness in battle, not individual talent in killing.

To move to the Celts however, they favored fighting in little to no armor, but used longer and lighter swords. These swords required considerable room to use, as the user had to swing them for an effective impact. Thrusting was possible, but not common with this type of sword (at least for the Celts.) Each man almost fought on his own in battle though, as individuality was highly favored. A great warrior killed many foes, but his entire leadership may have just getting men to follow him because he was doing so well.

The Katana was great in one on one combat, or where the user didn’t have to worry about being close to his own men. It didn’t work so well in tight formations though. However, the Samurai gained honor and fame though his individual actions anyway, so he preferred to be separately identifiable from his allies.

Generally armies that fought in formation preferred to have shorter, straight swords. Individuals preferred to have longer swords, as they allowed the user to strike from a longer distance. It armor was common, the swords tender to grow heavier. As armor declined, swords became lighter but kept their length resulting in the fencing weapons of today.

Whether a weapon is curved or not depends on the culture and exact application to which is was to be used. As has been already mentioned in this thread, a curved weapon is easier for a cavalryman to remove while still moving. A curved weapon can also be more easily used in slashing motions that allows for drawing cuts that are best against light or no armor. Early curved weapons are rare due to the metal being unsuitable, or the culture’s metalworking skills being insufficient.

I’ve heard a theory that a country’s traditions for size and shape of sword are dictated by what their military has used a generation or two earlier. In some cases, owing to the slow change in technology, this had them using the same weapons. I’m not sure I buy this one completely though.

Cost is probably another factor. When you’re a quartermaster for the Roman army, equipping thousands of soldiers for battle, you’re going to want the cheapest sword you can buy, and still be effective. Since one portion of a sword’s cost is the materials cost, small swords will be more effective. Katanas, on the other hand, were as I understand it primarily weilded by the upper class, who could afford a greater weight of metal.

Anoter intersting sidenote about cultural swords is that in the west, throughout the ages the style of the sword has consantly been changing and evolving. While in eastern society, the Katana and its littler brother the Wakizashi were pretty much the same for 1000s of years. What does this mean? I think it means that it shows the constant desire to improve the basic sword in Europe. And the desire to perfect what was already “standard” in the east. I just thought that was an interesting point and I havent heard anything about it so far in this discussion.

Alessan and Maeglin brought up that a “Claymore”, despite being often used (incorrectly) to refer to a Scottish basket
hilt sword, is actually an extremely long (some had blades up to 7 ft long) sword that seems to be useless on the
battlefield. However, it and other similar swords like Zweihander did have a very specific purpose.
They came into being around the time pike lines became popular. Soldiers, chosen for the simple fact that they were
huge, muscular, manly men, would run forward and use this sword to break the pike lines. The rest of the offensive line
would then run forward, while the Claymore wielders would then drop the monster swords, draw their own more managable
weapons and join the fun.

After the death of the Connery character, the Lambert character used his katana if my memory serves me correctly. The katana’s curve comes from the way it is formed during the heating and beating process.

It also incidentally makes it a better cutting weapon because only one point of the curve of the sword comes in contact with the target surface at any given instant, thus increasing the force applied to that one point over a straight edge that would distribute it over the entire area of contact. And it also keeps only one point in contact as it moves through its cut.

Remember the African friend of McClouds? He had this itty bitty sword that was maybe 18 inches long, and he looked pathetic trying to duel Kergan with it.

Here’s an example from Livy of the effectiveness of a Roman gladius v. a Gallic sword:

Ab Urbe Condita, VII, ix-x:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0026&query=chapter%3D%23356&layout=&loc=7.10

The story continues onto the next page. It’s pretty cool.

Tenebras

This makes me wonder what the motivation was for people to stop carrying swords… it seems that it used to be extremely commonplace. Was it the advent of an inexpensive gun?

Boy, I would love to carry around a sword. Bu if medium-sized knives are illegal to carry (in many places), I am sure a sword is out of the question.

Shame. I’d look so dashing with one!

**

I don’t know if it was so much that as it was the ease of using a firearm. It takes a lot of training before someone is any good with a sword. You can train someone to be a more effective killer in a shorter amount of time with a pistol. That and carrying a small pistol doesn’t take up as much room as a three foot blade.

There’s a reason people gave up knives for guns. Guns are just so much better whether you’re a bandit or a law abiding citizen.

Marc

erislover wrote:

Move to Virginia. I’ve made a couple of chainmail shirts in my day, along with some plate pieces made from 22 guage auto steel, doubled, and gone to Halloween parties all armored up. Looks kinda silly without a weapon, though. I called the state police, since, for some reason, their “answer the weird questions” guy seems much more amenable to chatting about strange points of law than do the local cops (I’ve called 'em about a few things).

Anyway, I asked about carrying a sword to a party. The answer I got was that in Virginia, you can legally carry a blade of any length, at any time. The Answer Guy went on, though, to tell me that if I were at, say, a bar, and a fight broke out or other such trouble, any good cop would take the time and effort to at least question the “whacko with a sword,” if not detain such a person on general principles for a few hours.

With that in mind, I reserve the sword for private, low-key parties and/or Halloween-inspired silliness at work. When I got all gussied up for a Halloween at the local bar, the sword stayed at home. Undoing a lot or armor to take a pee was tough enough without an extra dead weight hanging at my side, anyway (one scales-over-chainmail shirt I made comes to a point in front and back at around knee length, and I actually installed a hook at one shoulder so I could pull that pointed part way up and hang it somewhere, with the urinals in mind).

One reason they went out of fashion was that it’s real easy to look like the dashing doofus.

Step, thwack; step, thwack; step, tangle.

Writing in 1870 about his dead aunt, James Edward Austen-Leigh makes a charming digression about the demise of the dress sword. His laments their passing not because swords looked nifty, but because it was so durned troublesome to walk around with one. The only people who looked graceful had practiced since childhood: you could tell which dude was to the manor born. See A Memoir of Jane Austen.

I’ve tried period replica weapons with costumes, and yeah. He’s got a point.

BTW regarding edged weapons that pierce heavy armor, I’ll mention the battle axe. Yes, it works. But no, not like most people think. Use the other end and aim for a joint in your opponent’s armor (shoulder, neck). First spike 'em, then yank the wound open. The blade’s there to give it torque…and maybe to help finish.

I’m no duelist, but I do fence epee, as well as a little foil, and I’ve had the oppoiste experience. Epee bouts can be marked by long periods of feinting, experimentation, and just sizing your opponent up and waiting for your shot. Sabre (and to a lesser extent, foil) is the quick weapon. The bouts themselves are still shorter, because there is no right-of-way or target area concerns for the director to bother with.

Your other points on the weapon are pretty accurate.

One point on katanas: More than any opther weapon I’ve seen, it’s easy for two opponents with katanas to mutually defeat one another. I’d suggest that it’s continued popularity in Japan where Europeans generally avoided a feudal version of MAD was due to Bushido culture and Asian religious beliefs.

In Cleveland and most (if not all) of its suburbs, it’s legal to carry a sword, so long as it’s not concealed. If it’s concealed, it’s treated the same as any other concealed weapons. Rules may be different on private property; many schools (kindergarten through college), for instance, disallow all weapons entirely on the grounds.

I suspect that the rules are similar most places in the US, but few folks even bother to ask about swords anymore.

One does have to wonder how exactly you’d go about concealing a 4’ long pointy thing, eh? I mean, it’s not like you’re going to have people asking you “is that a sword in your pocket or are you really REALLY happy to see me?” :smiley:

off topic a little, but what were the two-handers that had a serpentine curvy blade? They were used by the conditeretti I think to chop off pik heads. I think it starts with an F.

Thanks!

Falchion. Don’t you have your D&D manuals handy?

Katana-space, of course. On highlander the series the sword-wielders could hide swords in anything.

I thought the article looked genuine. Why do you say this source is untrustworthy?