# Differing assumptions that are the basis of liberal and conservative positions
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 29, 2016, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418 "2016-04-29T12:53:23Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/61 "2016-04-29T18:44:48Z")
> [@TriPolar](#):
>
> I don’t believe there’s a real difference. The apparent differences are the result of defining particular issues in a devisive manner and the common traits among people just apply to their choices based on more particular reasons. There may be types of extremists drawn more to one side to the other, but then they are just played for pawns in the narrow scope of their views. There are plenty of Cons and Libs who want to use government to impose their morality on people, they just differ on the particular aspect of morality, and plenty of both who are libertarian on different issues. The different sides are like two drunken men in greatcoats who engage in a brawl and manage only to fight their way into each other’s coats in the end.
What is accepted as axiomatic with regards to morality combined with the intellect and education to apply logic to those axioms is all the difference. And that’s just the differences due to base principles and reason. Humans are also irrational.
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/62 "2016-04-29T18:50:26Z")
> [@octopus](#):
>
> What is accepted as axiomatic with regards to morality combined with the intellect and education to apply logic to those axioms is all the difference. And that’s just the differences due to base principles and reason. Humans are also irrational.
Ok, I can’t disagree because I don’t know what you are saying, except for the last part which is the crux of it. People aren’t tied to the principles they espouse, they’re situational whether or not they admit it. For the case of individual responsibility vs. government assistance it comes down to who receives the benefit and how. Motives are associated with those positions, not simply principles.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/63 "2016-04-29T18:59:53Z")
> [@octopus](#):
>
> This is a very good question. Fundamental assumptions are part of it.
>
> Look at the whole basis of law. Look at the rationale in the US Constitution for the strong attempts at providing balances of power. Not just between branches of government but between the government as an institution composed of ambitious, ruthless, Machiavellian people and other institutions such as religious, states and municipalities, businesses, and the people. The idea was that due to human nature itself strong constraints and boundaries were necessary for and between differing power sources.
>
> I agree with this and one of the fundamentals that I apply when discussing law or societal change is the mechanism in which change is enacted and what are the consequences of that. For example, I dislike police and state sanctioned brutality. I sympathize with the Black Lives Matter movement. I sympathize with many of their tactics. What I don’t sympathize with is when those tactics, here comes a real life slippery slope!, are used to demand organic local sourced turnip greens at State U.
>
> Mob rule needs to be reserved for the most serious and egregious abuses of state power that have been failed to be corrected via any other mechanism. Not for a pet social project.
>
> I’m against minimum wage because of these fundamental reasons. People should be free to associate more or less how they wish. And I don’t believe the “right to regulate interstate commerce clause” extends down to the intrastate level. Much less the person to person level. Or the level where a man can be sanctioned by the state for planting wheat for personal consumption.
>
> If one is under the assumption we live in a pure democracy with no constraints on the government and a simple majority can subject any minority to anything they are wrong. We do have a constrained government and redefining or ignoring constraints for a politically palatable outcome at this point in time is setting a precedent for another majority or shrill enough minority to pervert the process in the future.
>
> So I operate under the assumption that human nature in the aggregate and at the individual level is not angelic. Humans aren’t at all periods in time and across the entire populace looking to improve themselves or live peaceful and productive lives. And it’s innate. We have evolved in the jungle to be survivors. We have instincts and drives that in some people and in some ways are incompatible with modern society. We wouldn’t have so many murderers, rapists, and other assorted violent criminals otherwise.
>
> So about the poor. I’ve been poor. I grew up on welfare and in foster homes. Not my whole childhood, but for several years. I grew up living in the country with a country foster home. I spent over a year living in the inner city in a foster home provided by a black family. I went to a black church for over a year. I’ve lived in a trailer park for several years and with no power for several seasons. I’ve had to beg for food. Then ask for a place to cook it.
>
> The poor are not some homogeneous group that all due to circumstance are down on their luck and just waiting to be the next huge contributor to society. MANY are there through their own choice. Many of the children have no chance. That’s the true problem. Democrats think if only the poor had a bit more they’d be able to crawl their way out of the bottom. Wrong! Some poor will. Some poor will buy more crack, meth, Pabst Blue Ribbon, or spend it on a hooker.
>
> Democrats also think that empowering the government to do as it wishes to solves problems will solve problems. That’s more pure ignorance on the nature of people. Those tendencies to want to help are just one additional mode to be exploited by ambitious people. And those ambitious people are excused because of the (D) by their name on the ballot. It’s quite funny in addition to being tragic. What empowering government does is attract those who want power and transfers that power to them. To those people that compose the government. Government isn’t like a desk. It’s not a tangible object. It’s a collection of people. That’s all government is. A collection of people with power. But let’s be afraid of PepsiCo.
>
> So yeah there are fundamental differences. Realists recognize that people and power need constraints because people and power aren’t fundamentally good.
I appreciate the long response, but I don’t believe your assertions about the assumptions of Democrats or liberals are accurate. At least, they’re generally not accurate for me. I don’t believe that “if the poor only had a bit more they’d be able to crawl out from the bottom…” – I believe, just like you, that with more resources, some poor folks would succeed and others would not – we just probably disagree on, roughly, the proportion of one group to the other. Further, I don’t believe in such a generality as “empowering the government to do as it wishes to solves problems will solve problems” – I believe that the government is sometimes the best or least bad choice to address certain problems, and sometimes it is not. Again, we probably just disagree on some of the particulars of this (while agreeing on many as well) – I might believe that the government would or could provide better health care than the private sector (and you might believe the opposite), while we both believe that the government provides the best service in terms of fighting fires, enforcing laws, and providing national defense, and we both believe that the private sector provides the best service in terms of great sushi, consumer electronics, haircuts and styling, and much more.
My main driver for opening this thread is that I believe that so many discussions result in talking past each other, because many liberals don’t understand what conservatives believe, and many conservatives don’t understand what liberals believe, and I wanted a non-confrontational thread to try and help correct this. Hopefully this will help you and others (including myself) have a better idea of what people who disagree with you actually believe, since misconceptions are so common.
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### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/64 "2016-04-29T19:08:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> I don’t see how.
You said “I believe that most conservatives believe that… poor people… would prefer bare-sustainment (poverty level) government support than working for lower-middle-class pay”
I then asked if you believed that people would stay home and not work if you paid them enough money, and you said yes. Isn’t that a conservative postion?
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/65 "2016-04-29T19:11:16Z")
> [@Lumpy](#):
>
> Conservative: “Life isn’t fair”
> Liberal: “Then we’ll make it fair”
More like:
_Conservative:_ It’s everyone’s right and obligation to thrive or perish by whatever means they have. That’s the law of the jungle and always has been.
\*Liberal: \* We don’t live in jungles any more.
Closely related to that:
_Conservative:_ There’s no such thing as “unfairness”. Life has its ups and downs but ultimately everyone is the architect of their own destiny.
_Liberal:_ No, there’s all kinds of bad luck and sometimes it starts at birth. A civilized society understands that it’s in everyone’s interest to ensure opportunity for achievers, a dignified and productive life for the less capable, and empathy for the disadvantaged.
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### Author:  [@erocked](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erocked)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/66 "2016-04-29T19:23:57Z")
Interesting topic. I’ve wondered the same thing. In my opinion liberals and conservatives have differing structures of thought process. The Republican party has always seemed to me a strong, United and powerful party. Its members ignoring some of their own ideals for the greater good and accepting that somewhere down the line their own calls may be addressed. Conservatives typically think in terms of one size fits all and if it doesn’t than there is some sort of advantage/ disadvantage dynamic, which is unacceptable. A natural hierarchy is formed and adhered to because those who’ve made it to the top deserved it and equally those who occupy the bottom deserve it. Of course they pander to societal movements just as the left, only theirs tend to be established social orders, religions, etc… Conservatives do not typically want change unless it is change to a real or imaginary idyllic past. Big government is the enemy because it has the means to not only create but destroy and could become too powerful. The focus is usually economic advantage.
The democratic party on the other hand doesn’t seem united. They seem more a patchwork of smaller subgroups who will support and incorporate each other’s mission. They may not get their calls answered right away but they will support the party trusting that someday they will have their calls met too. Liberals do not think in terms of tradition, and the idyllic past was never lost because it never existed. Questions are confronted on a more complex level and one size fits all is rarely true. Solutions are less cut and dry as conservatives, who’s one size fits all plan doesn’t account for societies’ own effects. Big business is the enemy because it can become too powerful and the public can lose the means to control it. The focus is social harmony.
I’m independent because I feel at different times that both sides are needed.
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### Author:  [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/67 "2016-04-29T19:30:29Z")
The only two overarching philosophical differences I have read that I believe help explain liberal vs conservative views are city vs country and hunter vs farmer. They are somewhat similar but city vs country is richer.
The hunter vs farmer way of seeing society is easiest to explain. In Hunter society everyone in the group goes out hunting for game. Because hunting is hard and game animals are unpredictable on most days most people kill nothing. It is not their fault that the game animals just chose not to walk in front of them that day. On certain days the game will walk in front of them and provide them with more meat than they can eat. Skill and hard work plays some part in success but it is mostly luck. The optimal strategy is then for all the hunters to pool their kills after the hunt. That way an extended period of bad luck does not mean starvation. A societal problem with this is that some hunters may come to get their share when they are unlucky but refuse to share when they make a kill. Thus people who don’t share are hurting everyone else and being selfish and should be villified.
In Farmer society everyone has a plot of land and works it for the best crop. The harder a farmer works then the better the harvest is. A farmer that plants more acres works harder but then harvest more crops. If a farmer does not have enough to eat then they didn’t plant enough acres. Some luck is involved with weather and soil fertility but for the most part if you work hard you eat good. The societal problem is theft, people being too lazy to work and then breaking into other people’s barns and stealing the stored crops because farming is too hard work to do if someone else is going to be taking the crops and if theft is a problem people will plant less crops and instead work on securing their barns.
Liberals think that modern society is like a hunter society, An example of this is acting which is a famously liberal profession where the actors are either out of work for long periods of time or making a great living starring in movies and most of the reason is not acting ability but the vagaries of the casting process.
Conservatives think that modern society is like a farmer society. An example of this is small business owners where most people don’t get rich but if you work hard enough you can make a good living.
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### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/68 "2016-04-29T19:30:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> I appreciate the long response, but I don’t believe your assertions about the assumptions of Democrats or liberals are accurate. At least, they’re generally not accurate for me. I don’t believe that “if the poor only had a bit more they’d be able to crawl out from the bottom…” – I believe, just like you, that with more resources, some poor folks would succeed and others would not – we just probably disagree on, roughly, the proportion of one group to the other. Further, I don’t believe in such a generality as “empowering the government to do as it wishes to solves problems will solve problems” – I believe that the government is sometimes the best or least bad choice to address certain problems, and sometimes it is not. Again, we probably just disagree on some of the particulars of this (while agreeing on many as well) – I might believe that the government would or could provide better health care than the private sector (and you might believe the opposite), while we both believe that the government provides the best service in terms of fighting fires, enforcing laws, and providing national defense, and we both believe that the private sector provides the best service in terms of great sushi, consumer electronics, haircuts and styling, and much more.
>
> My main driver for opening this thread is that I believe that so many discussions result in talking past each other, because many liberals don’t understand what conservatives believe, and many conservatives don’t understand what liberals believe, and I wanted a non-confrontational thread to try and help correct this. Hopefully this will help you and others (including myself) have a better idea of what people who disagree with you actually believe, since misconceptions are so common.
I don’t believe that the terms liberal, Democrat, Republican, and conservative are honestly all that useful in discussions of fundamentals due to the fact that the labels in terms of political spectrum are overly simplified mono-axis and poorly defined and the party labels represent huge coalitions. So when a critique is made of one of these labels millions that self identify with that particular label can quite honestly say that that critique does not apply to them. Discussion is difficult due to the large amount of qualifiers necessary in order to be accurate.
I know a lot of self identifying liberals and most liberals I know are good people. And their point of views on many subjects are all over the place but they think of themselves as liberal and tend to vote Democratic maybe because of one or two key issues. Or they grew up in a place where the majority were a particular party just out of tradition or for local political reasons. I don’t even know if they have a core set of axiomatic values or even have thought about that concept.
On the flip side with regards to what conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, or liberals believe we can only speak anecdotally as well. I can’t speak for conservatives or Republicans even though that’s how I self-identify because I’m aware that not only do I break from many of the preconceptions of those labels many that I know that self-identify the same way do so as well but in different manner.
TLDR version, these labels encompass so much diversity and some of it is mere tribal affiliation and branding that’s it’s hard to accurately list the fundamentals.
So speaking purely for me my assumption is that might makes right. In order to live in a world where might makes right it helps to form associations with others. In order to avoid being predated upon it is of vast utility to promote the idea that individual rights are axiomatic in order to establish a framework that a system of laws can be enacted that results in a society in which we don’t have to worry about the extreme consequences of Darwinism. Following that and fearing concentration of power that can be exploited, promoting the concept that individual rights for the most part trump collective outcomes is important to me.
Now one consequence of the belief that it’s important to advocate individual rights is the idea that sovereignty derives from the aggregate of the people who cede parts of that sovereignty. Thus the legitimacy of the US Constitution. And it’s a pretty legitimate document considering the historical times it was drafted in. In the present my point of view on a subject is quite often shaped by how legitimate is the process in which that subject can be implemented combined with the outcome. For example gay marriage, I don’t have a problem with the idea of gay people marrying. I don’t have a problem with polygamists marrying. I don’t care. I do have a problem with judges creatively interpreting words to facilitate a political outcome. Therefore, if the majority of the people forbid gay marriage I can accept that. If the majority approve gay marriage I can accept that. If a judge creatively interprets something and unilaterally creates new law I have a problem even if I agree with the outcome. Now as I’ve said in a different thread I don’t feel people are entitled to know exactly why I think what I think. I think points of view don’t need a tremendous discourse on a forum to be accepted for more that what is stated. I do run into a lot of “dat’s racist!” “dat’s homophobic” and other slanders because I am loathe to put forth a disclaimer prior to a statement about a topic that is controversial.
TLDR of my fundamentals! Might makes right. Promote a concept that individuals are important and have some form of intrinsic rights. Support a government founded strongly in part on those concepts. Support the process that derives from the founding document of said government even if a desired outcome is slow in actualizing.
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### Author:  [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/69 "2016-04-29T19:31:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> I consider unprotected sex, drug use (along with traffic violations, skipping school, vandalism, pranks, etc.) and some poor performance in school “average” mistakes that are extremely common.
I disagree that these mistakes are “extremely common”.
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/70 "2016-04-29T19:32:44Z")
> [@erocked](#):
>
> Conservatives do not typically want change unless it is change to a real or imaginary idyllic past.
That’s a very outdated view of today’s conservatives, at least as presently represented by the GOP. There is nothing about traditional conservatism there except the occasional hypocritical bleat about “family values”, and it would be unrecognizable and alien to the conservatives of that idyllic past. What we have today is Donald Trump and Ted Cruz, the outgrowth of a couple of decades of rampaging lunatics that want to shut down half the government and start global wars. These are not your father’s gray-suited station wagon driving conservative suburbanites.
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### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/71 "2016-04-29T19:35:50Z")
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> That’s a very outdated view of today’s conservatives, at least as presently represented by the GOP. There is nothing about traditional conservatism there except the occasional hypocritical bleat about “family values”, and it would be unrecognizable and alien to the conservatives of that idyllic past. What we have today is Donald Trump and Ted Cruz, the outgrowth of a couple of decades of rampaging lunatics that want to shut down half the government and start global wars. These are not your father’s gray-suited station wagon driving conservative suburbanites.
Uh-oh! It has begun!
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/72 "2016-04-29T19:48:35Z")
> [@octopus](#):
>
> Uh-oh! It has begun!
Let me rephrase, to keep more in the spirit of the OP’s intent. 🙂
When discussing the general nature of conservatism vs. liberalism, it’s worth pointing out in response to a comment like the one I responded to that today’s _Republicans_ no longer seem to be traditional conservatives, which may or may not be relevant to the discussion. I find it striking that today’s Republicans have in fact become quite radical and, far from being resistant to change in the classic conservative fashion, are in many cases advocating sweeping changes. So one wonders from a pragmatic standpoint what party today is the classical conservative standard bearer. In traditional terms, maybe the Democrats under Hillary, while the Bernie side are the liberals.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/73 "2016-04-29T19:49:07Z")
> [@puddleglum](#):
>
> You said “I believe that most conservatives believe that… poor people… would prefer bare-sustainment (poverty level) government support than working for lower-middle-class pay”
> I then asked if you believed that people would stay home and not work if you paid them enough money, and you said yes. Isn’t that a conservative postion?
I don’t believe the bare sustainment level that I mentioned is enough for the vast majority of people.
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### Author:  [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/74 "2016-04-29T20:24:28Z")
It seems like lots of folks assume what other folks assume.
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### Author:  [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/75 "2016-04-29T20:26:17Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> In a really broad sense, the two come down to trust in government; the Left trusts and expects government to do good things, while the Right expects government to do the opposite.
I don’t think the Right expects the government to do the opposite of good things, i.e. bad things, but rather to do as little as absolutely necessary.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/76 "2016-04-29T20:41:32Z")
> [@Bone](#):
>
> It seems like lots of folks assume what other folks assume.
And you know what happens when you assume? 😉
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/77 "2016-04-29T20:44:31Z")
> [@Bone](#):
>
> It seems like lots of folks assume what other folks assume.
Yep. That’s what I’m hoping to clear up, at least a little bit, in this thread.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/78 "2016-04-29T20:45:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> And you know what happens when you assume? 😉
You make an ass out of Uma Thurman?
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/79 "2016-04-29T20:49:46Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#):
>
> I don’t think the Right expects the government to do the opposite of good things, i.e. bad things, but rather to do as little as absolutely necessary.
That’s a political philosophy? I would think that everyone – right, left, or center – would expect any taxpayer funded organization to do what is necessary and no more. Are you under the impression that liberals expect governments to do way more than “necessary” just for fun?
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### Author:  [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)
#### Post date: [April 29, 2016, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/differing-assumptions-that-are-the-basis-of-liberal-and-conservative-positions/753418/80 "2016-04-29T21:18:47Z")
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> Are you under the impression that liberals expect governments to do way more than “necessary” just for fun?
Not for “fun”, but more than necessary? Of that I am 100% certain.
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