# Difficulty of Baton Rouge SWAT Shot that Killed Gunman? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 19, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329 "2016-07-19T16:17:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/1 "2016-07-19T16:17:42Z")
I read this article: [Helluva Shot](http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/18/us/baton-rouge-police-shooting/index.html) [CNN] and was mildly surprised to see this: > [@](#): > > A SWAT team rifleman took out the gunman from more than 100 yards without a clear line of sight, Dabadie said. > > “That shot our SWAT team made was a helluva shot,” Dabadie said. “We’ve been questioned for the last (two) weeks about our militarized tactics and our militarized law enforcement. This is why. We are up against a force that is not playing by the rules. They didn’t play by the rules in Dallas and they didn’t play by the rules here.” Obviously I don’t know the details of the shot. However, 100 yards doesn’t seem like a long distance for a SWAT “rifleman.” A handgun shot would be impressive, but a modern longarm? Revolutionary War (smoothbore) muskets are generally credited with accuracy out to 50 yards: [QUOTE=Wikipedia] A typical smooth bore musket firing at a single man-sized target was only accurate to about 40 to 50 yd (37 to 46 m) using the military ammunition of the day, which used a much smaller bullet than the musket bore to compensate for accumulation of ash in the barrel under battlefield conditions. [/QUOTE] But some discussion [on topical interest sites](https://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=7369) indicates 100 yards was not exceptional for those weapons: > [@](#): > > An antique 17th century matchlock was tested in Austria (IIRC) against a man sized silhouette. The gun was aimed and fixed directly onto the center of the targets chest. At 100 meters it hit 50% percent of the time. The same test was done with a pistol from the same period with the result of 98% accuracy at 30 meters. > > In an 18th century test flint locks hit a target simulating an infantry line 75% percent of the time at 100 yards. > > There was also an officer in the revolutionary army who is quoted as saying that a man could expect to hit a lone person with a brown bess at 80 yards and perhaps even 100 yards but would have little hope of striking a man at 150 yards. Admittedly there could be some exaggeration by aficionados in the passage above; it’s just something I Googled. But by the US Civil War, rifles were muchg longer-ranged: [QUOTE=Wikipedia] Rifled muskets of the mid-19th century, like the Springfield Model 1861, were significantly more accurate, with the ability to hit a man sized target at a distance of 500 yards (460 m) or more.[1] [/QUOTE] Meaning no disrespect, but, given the above, why the excitement over a 100-yard shot in 2016 by a “militarized,” trained officer? ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/2 "2016-07-19T16:28:19Z")
Maybe it’s the “without a clear line of sight” part? And obviously it’s much more difficult to hit a live, evading target that doesn’t want to get hit than it is a stationary target. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/3 "2016-07-19T16:59:05Z")
The hit rate of smoothbores was quite low in actual combat conditions even against lines of men, even at ‘effective’ range. Firepower: Weapons Effectiveness on the Battlefield 1630-1750 by B.P Hughes is a good book on this. But the big difference between that period and the rifle era was that the limitations of the weapons themselves was so much more constraining. IOW hitting somebody with a smoothbore at 100 yds on a given shot is extremely difficult no matter how good a shot you are and how composed and relaxed. The curve ball effect of the bullet spinning around an axis perpendicular to the barrel, from rolling along one side of the barrel, which exact side you can’t predict, will throw off the best aim at a man size target at more than 10’s of yards. Hitting somebody with a US Civil War era muzzle loading percussion rifle at that range, bullet spinning around an axis parallel to the barrel, depends mainly on skill and composure. The gun can do it fairly reliably if aimed properly. And likewise for guns since then, except even more repeatable results and less bullet drop at 100 yards. But actually pulling off that correct aim in combat conditions isn’t easy. Analyses and opinions from WWII/Korean War combat even differed on whether the effective range of infantry fire was much greater than 100 yards, some sources and analyses believed up to 300 yards, but that might include light machine guns. For well positioned and aimed heavy machine guns it could be much more (though similar in inherent accuracy to rifles), likewise of course for exceptionally skilled rifle marksmen. In this case seems to me it really depends on the exact circumstances and shot. How long did the SWAT person have to frame and prepare the shot, prone, standing? etc. ---
**Author:** ![Me\_Billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Me\_Billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Me_Billy)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/4 "2016-07-19T17:13:14Z")
I don’t remember numbers very well, but seem to recall reading about 1000 yard sniper shots in Vietnam. Anyway I googled it and found this… > **[Longest recorded sniper kills](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_recorded_sniper_kills)** > > Reports regarding the longest recorded sniper kills that contain information regarding the shooting distance and the identity of the sniper have been presented to the general public since 1967.\[citation needed\] Snipers have had a substantial history following the development of long distance weaponry. As weapons, ammunition, and aids to determine ballistic solutions improved, so too did the distance from which a kill could be targeted. In mid-2017 it was reported that an unnamed Canadian speci... ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/5 "2016-07-19T18:55:48Z")
Ol’ Billy Dixon still hanging in at #11, 142 years later. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/6 "2016-07-19T19:00:27Z")
“Without a clear line of sight.” ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/7 "2016-07-19T19:33:34Z")
Hitting something at 100 yards, while standing, in a combat situation is not an easy shot. Doing it from a prone or bunker position at a rifle range is easy. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/8 "2016-07-19T20:18:11Z")
It’s not the distance, it’s the fact it was not a clear shot. A 100-yard shot with a clear view of what you’re shooting at is very easy. Heck, a 200-yard shot is very easy. At a moving target taking cover it can be a hard shot at 50 feet. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/9 "2016-07-19T20:23:15Z")
I read a book about seal team six once. The author said in training situations, they could reliably make shots out to 300-400 meters in almost any situation. Beyond that distance and problems started occurring. Seal team six is not the same as a Louisiana swat team, but still. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/10 "2016-07-19T20:30:26Z")
Shooting on a two way range is much more difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/11 "2016-07-20T16:53:19Z")
The thing about “not a clear shot” is that there can’t have been _too_ much stuff obscuring the shooter’s line of sight. I hope there was sufficient line of sight to allow them to be reasonably sure this was the bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/12 "2016-07-20T17:17:00Z")
I notice no one’s questioned the justification of “need for militarized police forces.” Did the gun porn distract y’all? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/13 "2016-07-20T17:50:41Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Shooting on a two way range is much more difficult. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/14 "2016-07-20T19:46:51Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I notice no one’s questioned the justification of “need for militarized police forces.” Did the gun porn distract y’all? Well, yeah, the “we’ve been questioned” line (with its implied “and this incident validates our choice to militarize” subtext) does seem a little self-justifying. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/15 "2016-07-20T20:40:13Z")
Does every question about the physics of firearms have to include a certain amount of hand-wringing over militarized police forces? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/16 "2016-07-20T20:48:39Z")
> [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](#): > > Does every question about the physics of firearms have to include a certain amount of hand-wringing over militarized police forces? No. Ones in which the police administration say, “Gee, it sure’ta’fuck was good we were heavily militarized to take out one walking perp, wannit?” are open to a little observation on the point, though. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/17 "2016-07-20T21:39:41Z")
I think ‘militarized police’ mainly wasn’t commented on mainly because it wasn’t the question. And independently of the actual question (how difficult is such shot?) it would just be the same generalized political talking points about ‘militarized police’. Unfortunately though you can’t really say how difficult it is to shoot somebody 100 yds away without more details. It’s probably fair to say though that a non ‘militarized’ officer isn’t going to train intensively with a rifle, and somebody who doesn’t is not that likely to make such a shot reliably. The probability would be very low with a completely non ‘militarized’ outfit of just a hand gun. Anyway saying that trained police marksmen are sometimes useful is not saying every department needs every aspect of gear and training on the scale every department’s leadership might think they need, or that the federal govt should fund/subsidize it. So it’s really a different topic. The anti ‘militarized police’ drive though I think is going to bog down with even two independent incidents, in a short period, of semi-automatic rifle armed shooters deliberately targeting and killing police. That hasn’t been seen in a long time if ever. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/18 "2016-07-20T23:07:37Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I notice no one’s questioned the justification of “need for militarized police forces.” Did the gun porn distract y’all? Wow so you’re complaining that nobody tried to hijack the thread? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/19 "2016-07-20T23:51:59Z")
Sorry, all. Take it back to _Gunz R Reel Kewl_. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329/20 "2016-07-21T00:22:47Z")
Not to put too fine a point on this kewl hijack, but a shot of 100 yards doesn’t necessitate “military” hardware - a good ol’ non-black-gun bolt action single shot hunting rifle will git r done. Not saying that’s what they used on the target in question, just that it can be accomplished without “militarization”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/difficulty-of-baton-rouge-swat-shot-that-killed-gunman/760329.md?page=2)