# Ding dong the Krokodil is dead! (Former South African President PW Botha) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 1, 2006, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709 "2006-11-01T08:09:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/1 "2006-11-01T08:09:30Z")
[Former South African President PW Botha dies aged 90](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6104332.stm). I bet he’s up there at the gates of heaven wagging his finger at St Peter and demanding to speak to his boss. The man was a bully and a thug. Grim ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/2 "2006-11-01T09:48:26Z")
Yipes, could you ask a mod to amend the thread title so that people don’t think [**Krokodil**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php?find=lastposter&t=394122) the poster is dead (and that you’re happy about it)? You gave me a shock there. Anyway, I’m picturing Botha meeting Jesus and reenacting the scene from _Lethal Weapon 2_: Botha: B-but… you’re bleck. St. Peter, to Jesus: He’s right, you know… y’are. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/3 "2006-11-01T15:53:50Z")
As requested, the title has been edited so poor \*\*Krokodil \*\* only has a little bit of a heart-attack instead of a big one. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/4 "2006-11-01T16:11:09Z")
The Washington Post has a great article - really conveys how utterly pathetic Botha was. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/01/AR2006110100006.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/01/AR2006110100006.html) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/5 "2006-11-01T16:36:12Z")
Just to note that P.W. shouldn’t be muddled up with Pik - something that occasionally happens. Dead but not forgotten. In all the wrong ways. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/6 "2006-11-01T16:40:19Z")
An apology, a change of heart, would not have undone what he did, but it would have been an indicator of character. His lack of remorse is another sort of indicator. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/7 "2006-11-01T16:44:23Z")
Funny, but when I first read about this the first thing that popped into my head was [this](http://members.tripod.com/garbage_pail_kids/GPAdults.htm) (bottom row left). ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/8 "2006-11-01T17:11:49Z")
[QUOTE=grimpixie] [Former South African President PW Botha dies aged 90](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6104332.stm). I bet he’s up there at the gates of heaven wagging his finger at St Peter and demanding to speak to his boss. The man was a bully and a thug. Grim [/QUOTE] Little-known fact: **P W** stood for _Pee Wee_. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/9 "2006-11-01T18:13:53Z")
[QUOTE=grimpixie] [Former South African President PW Botha dies aged 90](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6104332.stm). I bet he’s up there at the gates of heaven wagging his finger at St Peter and demanding to speak to his boss. [/QUOTE] If there is an afterlife I am quite certain he’s not at the Pearly Gates. He’s somewhere they keep the thermostat set much, much higher. When South Africa came up with the idea of the “Truth and REconciliation” hearings, I thought it was the dumbest idea I’d ever heard of. Boy, was I wrong; it was a remarkably smart way to acknowledge the wrongs of apartheid and move on without causing a horrible backlash. But it’s still a shame they didn’t hang P.W. Botha. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/10 "2006-11-01T18:32:51Z")
[QUOTE=grimpixie] [Former South African President PW Botha dies aged 90](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6104332.stm). I bet he’s up there at the gates of heaven wagging his finger at St Peter and demanding to speak to his boss. [/QUOTE] If there is an afterlife I am quite certain he’s not at the Pearly Gates. He’s somewhere they keep the thermostat set much, much higher. When South Africa came up with the idea of the “Truth and REconciliation” hearings, I thought it was the dumbest idea I’d ever heard of. Boy, was I wrong; it was a remarkably smart way to acknowledge the wrongs of apartheid and move on without causing a horrible backlash. But it’s still a shame they didn’t hang P.W. Botha. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/11 "2006-11-01T22:56:11Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] An apology, a change of heart, would not have undone what he did, but it would have been an indicator of character. His lack of remorse is another sort of indicator. [/QUOTE] Actually, that’s maybe the one thing I respect him for. Think about it. You’re P.W. Botha. You’ve built your life on the idea that whites are superior to blacks, and you’ve spent your entire political career maintaining that principle. So now it’s over, and your enemies, who stand for the opposite of all that, are in power. What do you do now? Do you say, “Oh, I’m so sorry! I’ve changed! I think all the things I’ve believed in are wrong, and all my actions defending them are evil!” If he had the views when he was strong, why change his position now just because he’s weak? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/12 "2006-11-01T23:16:07Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Actually, that’s maybe the one thing I respect him for. Think about it. You’re P.W. Botha. You’ve built your life on the idea that whites are superior to blacks, and you’ve spent your entire political career maintaining that principle. So now it’s over, and your enemies, who stand for the opposite of all that, are in power. What do you do now? Do you say, “Oh, I’m so sorry! I’ve changed! I think all the things I’ve believed in are wrong, and all my actions defending them are evil!” If he had the views when he was strong, why change his position now just because he’s weak? [/QUOTE] Fortunately, some people with racist and other abhorrent views do come to realize and admit that they were wrong. You’re [George Wallace](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wallace). You have built your political career as Governor of Alabama on supporting hard-line segregation between whites and blacks. You are well-known for standing in the door of a building at the University of Alabama to prevent black students from entering. You have used incredibly nasty racist images and slogans in your political campaigns. According to a Gallup poll, you are the seventh most admired man in America for what you have done. Now it’s over- segregation has gone down. You have adopted some new religious beliefs, and you have become aware of the harm that your segregationist policies and rhetoric have done. What do you do now? George Wallace apologized to civil rights leaders and appointed a record number of black Alabamians to government positions in his last term as governor. That had to take an incredible amount of courage, to realize that he had been wrong, admit it, and try to do something about the damage he caused. _That’s_ what I wish PW Botha had had the morals and the courage to do. Recognizing and admitting that you were wrong isn’t a weak thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/13 "2006-11-02T03:43:09Z")
I’m an atheist, but I won’t pass this up: > [@Botha](#): > > “I only apologize for my sins before God.” Good luck with that. You’ve had some time to prepare that apology, so it had better be a good one. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/14 "2006-11-02T04:29:15Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] So now it’s over, and your enemies, who stand for the opposite of all that, are in power. What do you do now? Do you say, “Oh, I’m so sorry! I’ve changed! I think all the things I’ve believed in are wrong, and all my actions defending them are evil!” If he had the views when he was strong, why change his position now just because he’s weak? [/quote] Because it would have been morally right? As Pope said, you should never be ashamed to admit you’ve been in the wrong, since it merely shows you are wiser today than you were yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/15 "2006-11-02T04:36:33Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] Because it would have been morally right? As Pope said, you should never be ashamed to admit you’ve been in the wrong, since it merely shows you are wiser today than you were yesterday. [/QUOTE] I think his point was that sticking to his guns, however repellent, is better than issuing some completely fake I’m-dying-so-I-better-score-some-brownie-points-with-God apology. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/16 "2006-11-02T04:39:42Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] As Pope said, you should never be ashamed to admit you’ve been in the wrong, since it merely shows you are wiser today than you were yesterday. [/QUOTE] Even if he didn’t believe he was in the wrong, though? He should lie about what he believes to make the people he believes are evil happy? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/17 "2006-11-02T06:45:10Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Even if he didn’t believe he was in the wrong, though? He should lie about what he believes to make the people he believes are evil happy? [/QUOTE] No, but it would have been much better if he had recognized that his racist views were wrong and evil. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/18 "2006-11-02T08:07:25Z")
So I guess only one Bothan died to give us this message? Come on, someone had to say it. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/19 "2006-11-02T10:38:08Z")
I just call him Pig Botha. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709/20 "2006-11-02T12:13:21Z")
Some of the reaction in Sth Africa is interesting (and IMHO, inspiring): > [@](#): > > [Mandela leads tributes to S Africa’s Botha](http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200611/s1779186.htm) > Nelson Mandela has led South Africans in paying tribute to former President P W Botha, the defiant face of apartheid who doggedly clung to white rule and refused to free Mandela from jail. > > News of Mr Botha’s death at age 90 at his home on Tuesday prompted an outpouring of conciliatory statements from President Thabo Mbeki’s government and others who had fought to wipe away his regime’s strict racial divisions and embrace the multi-racial reconciliation embodied by Mandela. > […] > “Our correspondence with Mr Botha while we were in prison was an important part of those initial stages, as was the agreement to a personal meeting in Tuynhuys,” Mr Mandela said, referring to secret talks in the then presidential residence. > > Mr Botha’s death should be a reminder of “how South Africans from all persuasions ultimately came together to save our country from self-destruction”, Mandela said. > […] > **Mr Mandela’s statement reflected the core policy of reconciliation that underpinned his own presidency. Many believe this saved South Africa from a bloody transition from apartheid.** [my emphasis] > […] > The spirit of reconciliation was echoed in tributes on Wednesday from leading South Africans, including radical elements in the apartheid-era political divide. > > Mr Mbeki said Mr Botha held the reigns at a difficult period of South Africa’s history. > > “It stands to his credit that when he realised the futility of fighting against what was right and inevitable, he, in his own way, realised that South Africans had no alternative but to reach out to one another,” he said in a statement. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ding-dong-the-krokodil-is-dead-former-south-african-president-pw-botha/378709.md?page=2)