# Dinos Got the Holy Ghost?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 10, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886 "2004-01-10T23:06:53Z")
**Posts on this page:** 18
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/21 "2004-01-11T21:02:42Z")
Careful, **Speaker** , the mods don’t want any board wars.
---
### Author:  [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/22 "2004-01-11T21:08:02Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \*
> \*\*You should know that the brontosaurus never existed then. There were sauropods, to be sure, but the species called “brontosaurus” turned out to be a mistaken identification of a new species based on the combination of an aptosaurus skeleton with the skull of a camarasaurus. The bronto ironically became one of the two most familiar dinos in popular imagination (along with T-Rex) but there was never any such thing. \*\*
It’s not really the case that “there never was such a thing”; the name _Brontosaurus_ as a taxnomic entity was relegated to a “junior subjective synonym” of _Apatosaurus_, but as the terms imply, such a designation is subjective on the part of those doing the classifying. There was a lot of pressure during the so-called Bone Wars between Cope and Marsh to not just find _more_ dinosaurs, but to find (and name) more _new_ dinosaurs. Thus, they had the tendency to name just about everything they found as a new species. Only well after the fact did people start to sort through the mess and found a lot of duplication. _Brontosaurus_ was the same critter as _Apatosaurus_ (except for the skull, which was tacked on more as an afterthought), but _Apatosaurus_ was named first, so it got priority. The animal existed, but it’s just due to the vagueries of taxonomic priority rules that it’s called _Apatosaurus_ and not _Brontosaurus_.
Having said that, “brontosaur” works fine as a common name for sauropods (much as we now have to deal with ‘raptors’ as the common name for dromaeosaurs, or “T-Rex” instead of _T. rex_).
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/23 "2004-01-11T21:45:14Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I wonder which religious traditions believe otherwise.
I do not have a catalogue of such groups. It is simply something I have encountered from time to time:
From the CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY at [www.carm.org](http://www.carm.org):
[However, a bit more theologically, there is something else to consider. Genesis 1:30 seems to indicate there was no meat-eating among land animals before the Flood, only after.](http://www.carm.org/evo_questions/speciedevelopment.htm)
From Dr. Bruce Foster:
[If you will look at Genesis 1:30 very carefully, you will notice that God originally created all the animals as vegetarians. The animals probally did not become carnivirous until sometime after the flood, as the earth replenished itself with abundant plant and animal life.](http://www.maxpages.com/biblegems/Questions_About_the_Flood)
I have no idea how widespread this belief may be, (I certainly do not share it), but it is (as I initially posted) present in _some_ groups).
---
### Author:  [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/24 "2004-01-11T21:51:50Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \*
> \*\*Careful, **Speaker** , the mods don’t want any board wars. \*\*
C’est vrai. Ignore me!
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/25 "2004-01-11T21:56:01Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Alessan \*
> \*\*Am I the only one who thought that **Poly** had dropped an apostrophe, and that this was going to be a theological discussion of Dean Martin? \*\*
I thought he was talking about Dino from _The Flintstones_. I thought maybe when Dino got all excited about something and made that “Mee! Mee! Mee!” sound, he was talking in tongues.
---
### Author:  [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/26 "2004-01-11T21:58:51Z")
**tom~** , I would ask how exactly an animal would magically go, after a flood, to being carnivorous from being herbivorous, but my guess is the answers are something like this from those who believe it:
1. God did it that way.
2. What, doesn’t your precious evolutionism explain that?
3. It’s not like it’d be that hard, they’d just eat different stuff.
4. Well, The Flood made all the vegetation salty, so the animals had to eat other stuff.
One wonders how Dr. Foster explains plants such as the Venus Flytrap, which eat animals (mostly small bugs, I believe), and what he might think of vultures due to the fact that they eat only what meat is already dead.
---
### Author:  [@Krisfer\_the\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krisfer_the_Cat)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/27 "2004-01-11T21:59:49Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by tomndebb \*
> \*\*Actually, in a couple of religious traditions, animals were herbivores (following Gn 1:20) until after the flood.
>
> Do not ask me for a defense of this position. I only point it out so that you are not lulled into a feeling that you have a crushing argument. _Nothing_ can crush the arguments of those who need Noah to be history.) \*\*
I wasn’t aware of THAT! Goodness wonder what T-rex used those 12 inch steak knife teeth for then?😉
> [@](#):
>
> You should know that the brontosaurus never existed then.
Yes, I know Brontosaurus and Apatosaurus are the same critter. I was trying not to be TOO pedantic. Or look like I was being overly bitchy to **iampunha** Also what \*\*Darwin’s Finch \*\* said: they are synonyms.
---
### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/28 "2004-01-11T22:20:53Z")
[What with all the posts about The Great Apatosaurus/Brontosaurus Naming Controversy, I thought I’d slip in a link to Cecil’s excellent Classic article on the subject. It doesn’t contradict anything previously posted in this thread; it’s just a fun read.
Although I wish the linked article had included Slug’s drawing.]([http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2\_011.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_011.html))
---
### Author:  [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2004, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/29 "2004-01-11T23:17:38Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by iampunha \*
> \*\*\*\*tom~\*\*, I would ask how exactly an animal would magically go, after a flood, to being carnivorous from being herbivorous[…] \*\*
I am more interested in the rationale for _why_ supposedly-former herbivorous animals would suddenly be made carnivorous as a result of either the Fall _or_ the Flood (the “how” would undoubtedly be “God did it”). Did God decide that the world needed a bit more suffering, to go along with what Man caused? Was He not happy with how things turned out during the Creation (which was, so far as I am aware, supposed to be a one-shot deal), and have a “do over”?
Unless they were made that way from the beginning, such a position - that herbivores became carnivores as a consequence of one of those events - argues only for a spiteful God (“I’ll punish Man _and_ everything else for what Man has done!”), as far as I can tell.
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/30 "2004-01-11T23:49:39Z")
In the “after the Fall” view, man introduced sin, which introduced all pain, suffering, and death. Prior to the Fall, all animals were herbivores. Subsequent to the Fall, some because carnivores, inflicting pain and death on others. (This is why Messianic prophecies speak of the lion lying down with the kid, etc. When the Messiah comes, he will restore the Earth to the state of Paradise (or one much like it).)
I am not sure as to the rationale behind the “after the Flood” scenario of carnivores arising from the herbivore population. I suspect that it comes from Gennesis 9:
> [@](#):
>
> 1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
> 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
> 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
> 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Since God only authorizes humanity to eat flesh after the Flood, I would guess that God only allows animals to eat flesh after the Flood. Other translations make verse 3 slightly more explicit in indicating that this may be the first permission God has granted for humans to eat flesh. The NIV says:
> [@](#):
>
> 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/31 "2004-01-11T23:50:50Z")
some because carnivores ==\> s/b some became carnivores
---
### Author:  [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/32 "2004-01-12T00:11:52Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Alessan \*
> \*\*Am I the only one who thought that **Poly** had dropped an apostrophe, and that this was going to be a theological discussion of Dean Martin? \*\*
“When the moon hits your eye” is more of a Velikovsky thing.
---
### Author:  [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/33 "2004-01-12T02:17:38Z")
Did God change their teeth and digestive tracts then?
Man was originally made omnivorous, right?
I read somewhere that dinosaurs exsisted long before man, then after some big earth disaster, God renewed it and THEN made the sky, lights, etc.
---
### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/34 "2004-01-12T05:05:47Z")
Vanilla, the Re-Creation or Gap theory- that a previous Creation, including dinos & perhaps even humanlike beings, was destroyed in the Lucifer Rebellion, and that God reshaped it in six days or stages was introduced in the mid-1800s & popularized by dispensationalist preachers, including the Scofield Bible. It assumes that Gen 1:2 should be translated “the earth became without form and void”. I believed it for a while as a slightly more realistic alternative to literal Young-Earth Creationism. I now hold to Old-Earth (Day-Age) Creationism with some dalliance with Theistic Evolution.
---
### Author:  [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/35 "2004-01-12T06:51:00Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Darwin’s Finch \*
> I am more interested in the rationale for _why_ supposedly-former herbivorous animals would suddenly be made carnivorous as a result of either the Fall _or_ the Flood (the “how” would undoubtedly be “God did it”).
I’m pretty sure G-d was just getting ready to have that whale swallow Jonah and those bears eat the children who taunted Elijah about his hair. I could be wrong though.😛
---
### Author:  [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/36 "2004-01-12T14:57:27Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by iampunha \*
> \*\*\*\*tom~\*\*, I would ask how exactly an animal would magically go, after a flood, to being carnivorous from being herbivorous, but my guess is the answers are something like this from those who believe it:
>
> 1. God did it that way.
> 2. What, doesn’t your precious evolutionism explain that?
> 3. It’s not like it’d be that hard, they’d just eat different stuff.
> 4. Well, The Flood made all the vegetation salty, so the animals had to eat other stuff.
> \*\*
1. Satan made them eat each other.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*
> One wonders how Dr. Foster explains plants such as the Venus Flytrap, which eat animals (mostly small bugs, I believe), and what he might think of vultures due to the fact that they eat only what meat is already dead. \*\*
Well, duh! Satan told the VFTs “Hey, the animals eat plants. Why can’t it be the other way around? Don’t you want to be better than animals?” and thus the VFTs are corrupted. Satan then moved on to Jupiter Pitcher Plants. Then after he was through with them, satan got the vultures interested in carrion. We obviously need to extend our ministry towards saving the flytraps, pitcher plants, and vultures!
---
### Author:  [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)
#### Post date: [January 12, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/37 "2004-01-12T15:51:08Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Polycarp \*
> The interesting thing is that people are actually trying to explain the scientific truths relative to this whole thing, and being scoffed at for their efforts.
The general lesson to be learned here is that no matter how irrational something is, you can always gather together a group of likeminded people who think it is obviously true and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.
This is sometimes relevant to people on boards such as this one, who are of course much smarter than the guys on the board you refer to - or those on any other board, for that matter - but who nonetheless sometimes fall into the error of relying of the general consensus of opinion on this board to collectively scoff away dissenting opinions. Doesn’t count here, any more than it does elsewhere.
---
### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886/38 "2004-01-14T15:47:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> Actually, in a couple of religious traditions, animals were Do not ask me for a defense of this position. I only point it out so that you are not lulled into a feeling that you have a crushing argument. _Nothing_ can crush the arguments of those who need Noah to be history.)
I agree. There’s a _lot_ of people who IMHO need to be history. But is it happening? Not a chance, unfortunately.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinos-got-the-holy-ghost/223886.md?page=1)