# dinosaurs or dragons **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 17, 2002, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513 "2002-06-17T13:07:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![monica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@monica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monica)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/1 "2002-06-17T13:07:24Z")
I have heard a theory that dragons really did exist- their wings were made of cartilage and decomposed after death, leaving only the skeleton, which we then called a dinosaur. This is also theorizing that perhaps the “dinosaurs” did exist during the same time that early humans did- otherwise, how would so many different cultures have these stories of dragons? I think that maybe some of the dinosaur skeletons were actual dinosaurs as we were defining them, but others were dragons. Is this possible? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/2 "2002-06-17T13:15:20Z")
There’s no reliable evidence that humans and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time, there’s plenty of evidence that the dinosaurs were around a looong time before the humans and there’s a reasonable amount of evidence (the layer of Iridium-rich deposit, apparently deposited on top of the last layer containing dinos) that the big dinosaurs all perished long before humans came on the scene. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/3 "2002-06-17T13:17:04Z")
Oh and would cartilage be strong enough to support even the wings themselves, let alone provide sufficient mechanical strength for flight? ---
**Author:** ![monica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@monica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monica)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/4 "2002-06-17T13:19:47Z")
I’m thinking that maybe this was some of the lighter dinosaurs… ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/5 "2002-06-17T13:21:35Z")
Or they came across a dinosaur’s skeleton and it sort of grew into dragon legends. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/6 "2002-06-17T13:25:09Z")
Hmmmm, even so; there would have to be pretty hefty muscle attachments for the wings (even if they were made of cartilage); just look at the breastbone of then next chicken you eat (and that’s a bird that doesn’t do an awful lot of flying). Where did you hear about all of this **monica**? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/7 "2002-06-17T13:26:17Z")
Several dinos did in fact have wings, i.e pteradons and pterodactyls, and paleontologists were able to identify them as winged animals. The theorized dragon would have to have had very different types of wings for science to have missed these structures completely, which I find very unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/8 "2002-06-17T13:32:35Z")
Random thoughts: 1.) cartilage can fossilize, too. A lot of dinosaurs had cartilage structures that helped support and stiffen their tails (apparently to keep them standing out and counterbalancing the upper body while the dinos ran, rather than dragging on the ground as in the “old school” reconstructions). 2.) strctly speaking, pterosaurs were neither ornithschians nor sauschians, and were, therefore, not dinosaurs (even though they lived at the same time and were wiped out at the end of the Creataceous period). 3.) Regarding old dinosaur bones being dug up and forming the basis for dragon legends – I used to think that this scenario was overplayed, but I was impressed by Adrienne Mayor’s book **The First Fossil Hunters** , which quotes plenty of classical evidence to back up the fossils-as-basis-for-legends hypothesis. (Although most of the legends aren’t about dragons, and moist of the bones are of later mammals, not dinosaurs.) I’ve met and talked with Ms. Mayor, and her work impresses me. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/9 "2002-06-17T13:37:53Z")
Here are a few threads with relevent information: [Dragons in Norse, Chinese, and European mythologies. How?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50342) [Where did the idea of dragons originate?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109091) [Why do dragons appear in cultures all over the world?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11914) [The Existence of Dragons](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75184) ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/10 "2002-06-17T16:11:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*Several dinos did in fact have wings, i.e pteradons and pterodactyls, and paleontologists were able to identify them as winged animals. The theorized dragon would have to have had very different types of wings for science to have missed these structures completely, which I find very unlikely. \*\* Several dinosaurs did, in fact, have wings, but they are not pterosaurs - they’re birds. Pterosaurs were _not_ dinosaurs; dinosaurs and pterosaurs were related, however, in that they are both archosaurs (the same group which includes modern crocodiles, and birds, of course, as well). While I don’t buy the dinosaur-dragon link, I do accept the possibility that there may be a link between pterosaur fossils and the concept of “dragon”, at least in Western mythologies. ---
**Author:** ![Swampwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Swampwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swampwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/11 "2002-06-17T21:19:22Z")
If the theory put forth in the OP were correct, would there be skeletal evidence of wings? Not necessarily fossilised cartilage, but spaces in the shoulder or back where it was apparent that wings had once been? ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/12 "2002-06-17T22:21:33Z")
You betcha. Wings are not just forelimbs with membranes attached. Significant modifications both to the bones and their articulations are required to switch from typical arm motions to ones more suitable for flapping flight. One need only look at the forelimbs (particularly the hands) of each of the three known vertebrate fliers to see how different they look from “normal” hands. Even if the alleged “dragon wings” were made of cartilage, we should have found some evidence of them by now, given the numerous dinosaur fossils uncovered thus far. We have pterosaur fossils which preserve even the structural microtubules within their wing membranes. We have bird (and non-avian dinosaur) fossils which preserve, in exquisite detail, feather impressions. We have clear membrane impressions in fossil bats. We even have fossilized skin and organs from “ordinary” dinosaurs. Granted, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but, in light of what we _do_ know about dinosaurs in general, that we haven’t found wing membrane impressions for dinosaurs does suggest quite strongly that they simply weren’t there. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/13 "2002-06-17T23:53:27Z")
Did the theory you heard include fire-breathing dragons? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/14 "2002-06-18T15:29:00Z")
I think we have to assume that this preposterous argument is another Creationism foil to subvert evolution. **monica** , did you sense an agenda lurking behind as you were told this theory? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/15 "2002-06-18T18:28:56Z")
Thanks for the info **Darwin** , I hadn’t known (or I’d forgotten) that pterosaurs were not considered dinosaurs. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/16 "2002-06-18T18:43:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Thanks for the info Darwin, I hadn’t known (or I’d forgotten) that pterosaurs were not considered dinosaurs. Hey! Don’t _I_ get any credit? > [@](#): > > 2.) strctly speaking, pterosaurs were neither ornithschians nor sauschians, and were, therefore, not dinosaurs (even though they lived at the same time and were wiped out at the end of the Creataceous period). ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/17 "2002-06-18T18:59:55Z")
Yeah, what **CalMeacham** said…or rather said first 🙂 But, to be my typical geeky self, there’s a lot more to being a dinosaur than being either an Ornithischian or Saurischian. And don’t get me started on the whole “Ornithischian” - “Saurischian” classification in the first place… ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2002, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dinosaurs-or-dragons/114513/18 "2002-06-18T19:20:32Z")
Do’h! I missed that part of your post somehow **Cal** , sorry!