# Dio, at it again and raising the bar **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 20, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888 "2010-06-20T18:19:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/21 "2010-06-20T20:57:55Z")
::Checks thread:: Oh yeah. I disagree with his main point expressed in page 1 of the linked thread. I believe that 90%+ of the population doesn’t self-evaluate their 1 in a million day incompetence especially well. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/22 "2010-06-20T21:22:41Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > **Dio’s** main point that he came blazing in with was that it was IMPOSSIBLE for it to happen to HIM because he’s SPECIAL\*, which is how he usually comes blazing into threads. > > \*He’s special, alright. 🙂 Not special, NORMAL. MOST parents would never do it. It’s fucking bullshit to say that they would. That’s not what the pitting is for, though. The pitting is because I said that it isn’t necessary for leaving the aby to be intentional in order for it to be negligent homicide. That is a factually correct statement, not an opinion. Some people want to change the laws to make it legal if they say it was an acident. I object to that. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/23 "2010-06-20T21:29:00Z")
My initial thought upon seeing this thread title was, “Oh, awesome, the Heaven & Hell summer tour must be back on track.” Then I realized it’s about **Diogenes** the poster, not Ronnie James Dio. Then I remembered that Ronnie James Dio passed away last month, which I’m always forgetting about. Now I’m all depressed again. Thanks a bunch, you fuckers. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/24 "2010-06-20T21:31:15Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > I have to admit, in that thread, it was fairly amusing when he leapt from “if you don’t think that every parent who accidentally killed their kid should be thrown in to jail for the rest of their lives” to “you clearly think child murder should be legal”. > > No shades of gray, our **Dio**. Yeah. It’s the all or nothing thinking that gets me. There’s never any exceptions–really? Or like in the thread where the politician grabbed the kid with the video camera– **Dio** ’s reaction is that the kid was a gaywad who secretly wanted to be grabbed. It’s just kind of insane. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/25 "2010-06-20T21:33:14Z")
I didn’t say “secretly.” ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/26 "2010-06-20T21:38:46Z")
What if someone puts a baby on a restaurant table and it falls and cracks its head open? Follow up question: is it OK if the baby is a “gaywad”? I’m an expectant father and need to learn the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/27 "2010-06-20T21:54:50Z")
**Diogenes** , did you read the Pulitzer Prize winning [article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/27/AR2009022701549.html) on this subject? I used to be just as unforgiving as you about these types of cases. But then I read about the cognitive neuroscience aspects, which changed my mind. I no longer think that every parent who does this, or even most of them, are monsters. > [@The Washington Post](#): > > Diamond says that in situations involving familiar, routine motor skills, the human animal presses the basal ganglia into service as a sort of auxiliary autopilot. When our prefrontal cortex and hippocampus are planning our day on the way to work, the ignorant but efficient basal ganglia is operating the car; that’s why you’ll sometimes find yourself having driven from point A to point B without a clear recollection of the route you took, the turns you made or the scenery you saw. > ad\_icon > > Ordinarily, says Diamond, this delegation of duty “works beautifully, like a symphony. But sometimes, it turns into the ‘1812 Overture.’ The cannons take over and overwhelm.” > > By experimentally exposing rats to the presence of cats, and then recording electrochemical changes in the rodents’ brains, Diamond has found that stress – either sudden or chronic – can weaken the brain’s higher-functioning centers, making them more susceptible to bullying from the basal ganglia. He’s seen the same sort of thing play out in cases he’s followed involving infant deaths in cars. The article also points out that in 60% of these cases, charges aren’t filed. Diogenes seems to be under the impression that the very fact that a child has died in a hot car automatically proves somebody is legally guilty. But this simply is not the case. IANAL, but from my arm chair readings on the law: Virtually every criminal offense (except traffic infractions) require both an _actus reus_ (the criminal act) and the _[mens rea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea)_ (“guilty mind”). What Diogenes wants is for this to be a [strict liability](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability) offense, and I think he’s under the impression that it is one. But it’s not. It’s up to a jury to decide whether a particular defendent met the _mens rea_ requirement, beyond a reasonable doubt, for criminal guilt to be established. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/28 "2010-06-20T22:01:16Z")
Cite that a jury must find that it’s intentional for it to be a crime? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/29 "2010-06-20T22:22:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Cite that a jury must find that it’s intentional for it to be a crime? I can’t vouch for all 50 states, but since I live in Washington I decided to look up Washington state law. > [@](#): > > RCW 9A.04.100 > Proof beyond a reasonable doubt. > > (1) Every person charged with the commission of a crime is presumed innocent unless proved guilty. No person may be convicted of a crime unless each element of such crime is proved by competent evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. > > [Homicide](http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.030) is excusable when committed by accident or misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means, without criminal negligence, or without any unlawful intent. > > [CRIMINAL NEGLIGENC](http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.08.010)E. A person is criminally negligent or acts with criminal negligence when he or she fails to be aware of a substantial risk that a wrongful act may occur and his or her failure to be aware of such substantial risk constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would exercise in the same situation. At first glance, this definition of criminally negligent may appear to favor your viewpoint (“fails to be aware”), but notice there’s some wiggle room here with “reasonable person” and “same situation.” What standard of care would a reasonable person exercise in the situation where their brain was under stress, and they completely forgot their child was in the car? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/30 "2010-06-20T22:32:25Z")
As much as I’d love to spend hours browsing through case law, unfortunately I’m off on a camping trip until Tuesday, so I hope some other legal eagle can pick up the torch where I left off on this _mens rea_ issue. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/31 "2010-06-20T22:52:29Z")
I think you nailed it Blalron. Dio, it’s not the case that ut must be intentional to be a crime, but it must at least be negligent. Not all of these cases involve negligence. I did say above that you don’t take “intent” into account, which was slightly off the mark. I should have said that you don’t take “state of mind” into account. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/32 "2010-06-20T22:57:40Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > What Diogenes wants is for this to be a [strict liability](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability) offense, and I think he’s under the impression that it is one. But it’s not. It’s up to a jury to decide whether a particular defendent met the _mens rea_ requirement, beyond a reasonable doubt, for criminal guilt to be established. I think you meant to link to [Strict liability (criminal)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability_%28criminal%29). ---
**Author:** ![Chicagojeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@Chicagojeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicagojeff)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/33 "2010-06-21T00:23:40Z")
Oh wow… so stress is a plausible excuse? I don’t get that. Several of us are in professions where we are required to make instantaneous decisions under extreme stress which subsequently we can be prosecuted for. While I wouldn’t say that every child death in a car should lead to an automatic indictment…I would say that their should be and IS a possibility for a further investigation and a potential presentation to a grand jury. I can get that humans make mistakes… but also as a parent I’ve never come close to this one so its largely unfathomable to me. As for DIO… I would pit him for his hate of the VUVU’s… but then again I probably would be standing alone on that one… or possibly the fact that he seems to like that prima donna from Kiln, MS ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/34 "2010-06-21T00:26:46Z")
> [@Chicagojeff](#): > > While I wouldn’t say that every child death in a car should lead to an automatic indictment..I would say that their should be and IS a possibility for a further investigation and a potential presentation to a grand jury. Who do you think you are arguing against by saying this? Were there any posts in that thread saying “eh, no biggie, shit happens, the police and prosecutors shouldn’t be involved at all”? ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/35 "2010-06-21T00:39:34Z")
Heh, why are people chasing cites for the biggest fucking troll on the boards? A twat who is just going to continue to post one line variations of “no I didnt”, and “when did you finish beating your wife” for another six pages. And after he has gotten his kicks from taunting you all, he will post “Ok, perhaps not all these parents were evil baby killing rapists”. Then four different people will jump in to praise **Diokwad** for being able to change his position. One will even say she has gained respect for him because of it. You guys. You crack me up. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/36 "2010-06-21T00:42:08Z")
Explains why you keep coming back, assuming its not a form of penance. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/37 "2010-06-21T00:46:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > When I reflect upon the people who so utterly hate him, I am compelled to admiration. I’m not sure if I’m being lumped in this group or not, but I feel I should clarify; I don’t hate **Dio** ; I just think his absolute world view is at odds with the world we actually live in, where few things are absolute. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/38 "2010-06-21T00:53:37Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I’m not sure if I’m being lumped in this group or not, but I feel I should clarify; I don’t hate **Dio** ; I just think his absolute world view is at odds with the world we actually live in, where few things are absolute. So how do 'luci’s nuts taste? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/39 "2010-06-21T00:56:43Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So how do 'luci’s nuts taste? Like your mom. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/40 "2010-06-21T01:01:24Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Like your mom. 😃 My mom is dead. ☹ (Not really. I think it’s stupid when people say the above in response to a mom joke, even when it’s true.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888.md?page=3)