# Dio, at it again and raising the bar **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 20, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888 "2010-06-20T18:19:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 1\ **Showing post:** 202
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888/202 "2010-06-21T17:12:54Z")
You argued that it was murder and criminal negligence _per se_. You argued mental state is irrelevant to a legal discussion on this topic. You argued mental state is irrelevant to criminal negligence. You argued the act is criminal negligence regardless of mental state. You argued criminal negligence is “automatic” by statute. You were wrong. When the infraction cites were presented, I immediately admitted I was wrong in claiming there was no crime. There is a crime: an infraction. I was right as to criminal negligence and homicide, but wrong in saying there is no crime. Why don’t you step up and do likewise? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You’re grasping at straws. It is possible to have an opinion that someone is a murderer without that person having to be convicted of it. It’s not _just_ a legal term (actually, I think “homicide” is more common in the written statutes). > This objection has no relevance to the legal discussion. It’s just you being offended by my opinion of people who commit a particular crime. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What did I say that was factually wrong, dude, and what have I changed position on? I made one legal claim. I was right. Other people were wrong (and they DID deny that it was a _per se_ crime to leave a kid in a car. It wasn’t a “no shit” situation). I think you’re reading a different thread than what’s actually here. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not special, NORMAL. MOST parents would never do it. It’s fucking bullshit to say that they would. > > That’s not what the pitting is for, though. The pitting is because I said that it isn’t necessary for leaving the aby to be intentional in order for it to be negligent homicide. That is a factually correct statement, not an opinion. Some people want to change the laws to make it legal if they say it was an acident. I object to that. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Leaving a baby alone in a car is automatically negligent, regardless of state of mind. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Negligence is not a state of mind, it’s a physical act. States of mind cannot be legislated. there is nothing in any statute that says leaving a baby in a car has to be willful to be illegal. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I know what _mens rea_ means, by the way. It’s not relevant in these cases. They are strict liability crimes. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > A reasonable person would be aware that leaving a baby in a car could hurt it. > > Plus, it’s just flat illegal to leave a baby in the car. There aren’t any loopholes or exceptions. Whether it results in death is neither here nor there. it’s negligent whether the parent intended it or not. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Show me a statute that says intent must be proven to find a person negliegent for leaving baby in the car. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It sounds like they are. If they know the danger, then they are negligent. > > What cases would those be? Cite? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Ok, I said “murderers.” That’s a subjective opinion. You don’t have to like it, but it’s just an opinion. I still didn’t say the punishment was life in prison. I just said it was illegal to leave the baby in the car, and everyone else kept talking about criminal negligence laws when I was talking about unattended child laws > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > For the record, I never claimed it was a felony, I just said it was illegal. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/25): > > I already do that. That’s why it absolutely can’t happen to me. Parents who do that crap should be jailed for life. They are murderers. I am better they are. I will not be told that I would ever do the same thing. There’s no way in hell. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/29): > > There is no contradiction. A few seconds is not a few hours. > > I am not just like them, and you do have to put parents who do this in jail or you’re just giving people a legal way to kill their kids on purpose and get away with it by saying it was an accident. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/33): > > They’re not innocent, they killed a baby, and if you don’t want to jail them, then you’re saying it should be legal to leave a baby in a car until it dies. Why do you want to legalize that? That’s horrific. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/73): > > For those who object to punishment for this kind of negligence – are you saying that leaving a baby in a car until it dies should be legal? If not, the what are you saying? Is it a crime or isn’t it? > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/75): > > It automatically means you committed an act of negligance, How you are as a parent otherwise is utterly irrelevant. > > Should it be legal to leave a baby in a car until it dies, yes or no? > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/79): > > So you’re now saying it should be legal? Anyone who wants to kill their baby need only leave it to die in their car and receive a get-out-of-jail-free card? > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/117): > > So it should be legal to leave a baby in a car until it dies? > > If somebody decides they want to kill their baby on purpose, you would be in favor of giving them a free and legal way to do it? > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/119): > > There is ignorance involved with this, not just negligence. It’s not necessarily forseeable or knowable to a lot of parents that taking their kids to McDonalds could make them diabetic. It’s forseeable to all of them that leaving a baby in a hot car could kill it. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/122): > > How should I know? That’s my point. How can ANYBODY tell if its intentional or not? What would be the means of making that determination? If they cry a lot, they’re innocent? Susan Smith cried a lot. Casey Anthony cried a lot. So what? > > If a parent leaves a baby in a car, and the baby dies, and those facts are agreed to, we have a case of negligent homicide. If you want to make an exception and let them go if the act was unintentional, somebody is going to have to PROVE it was unintentional. How do you do that? Are you going to let them go unless intentionality can _also_ be proven beyond a reasonable doubt? In that case, you’d be making it awfully easy to get away with. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/123): > > If you give them the loophole, there definitely are parents who would plan on “forgetting.” > > Forgetting is not an excuse. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/125): > > This is not a profitable analogy. It does not involve an act of negligence on the part of the driver. Forgetting a baby is negligence. It’s not an excuse, it’s a negligent act in itself. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/129): > > How exactly are you defining the “crime” now? The act of leaving a baby in the car until it dies IS the crime. If that much is proven, the crime is proven. What _other_ circumstances are you suggesting should be present? > > It sounds like you’re saying the state should have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the parent did it on purpose. Is that what you’re saying? If that’s the case, you’re essentially making it legal, since it would be virtually impossible to ever prove intentionality unless the person confessed to someone. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/133): > > I don’t care. I’m not asking those juries anything, I’m asking whether people posting _here_ think leaving a baby in a car until it dies should be legalized. They seem to think it does. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/146): > > Show me where any statute says that intent is a factor in the legality of leaving a baby in a car. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/148): > > That’s what I’M trying to find out. Apparently, they at least think the law should be changed so that intentionality has to be proven. If that’s the case, they’d be making it almost impossible to get convictions. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/154): > > I meant to say that the other way around. I can’t believe I did that. I meant to say the presumption of innocence still obtains, yes of course, but that the burden is already met if it is undisputed that a parent left a baby in the car. Intentionality is not something that has to be proven, only that they did it. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/156): > > Leaving a baby in a car is automatically criminally negligent by statute. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/159): > > Show me a statute that says that intentionality must be proven. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/174): > > It doesn’t _have_ to be established. Intent is irreelvant. No intent is necessary for it to be negligence. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/175): > > It’s legally irrelevant in the acse of leaving a baby in the car. No intent is required in order for it to be a crime. Why is that so hard to understand? It’s not a legal excuse to say you forgot. > [@Texas toddler dies after mom leaves her in a hot car for 45 minutes](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/texas-toddler-dies-after-mom-leaves-her-in-a-hot-car-for-45-minutes/543728/178): > > What post has proven me wrong? Show me a statute that says intent is necessary. --- _[View the full topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-at-it-again-and-raising-the-bar/543888)._