# Dio, you are just wrong. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 27, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521 "2010-10-27T14:42:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/21 "2010-10-27T16:19:26Z")
We have a perfectly good phrase for forced marriage, that phrase being “forced marriage”. Forced marriage and arranged marriage mean different things. Certainly a third party could arrange a marriage and then force someone into it. But a force marriage doesn’t have to be arranged. In the classic “Shotgun wedding”, the girl has sex with a boy she chooses, gets pregnant, and the girl’s father forces the boy to marry his daughter at gunpoint. He didn’t choose that pimply-faced hoodlum for his daughter out of an array of potential suitors. Rather, she chose him. So that’s a forced marriage but not an arranged marriage. Of course, arranged marriages can be forced marriages, where families essentially buy and sell young people like livestock. But that doesn’t mean the two terms are synonyms. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/22 "2010-10-27T16:20:27Z")
Nobody said they were, but arranged marriage is still coercive in indirect ways. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/23 "2010-10-27T16:20:33Z")
On a related note, Germany is proposing to ban “[forced marriages](http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/10/27/germany-make-forced-marriage-crime/?test=latestnews).” They, at least, can tell the difference between arranged and coerced. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/24 "2010-10-27T16:22:38Z")
Give it up, **even sven**. Your heart’s in the right place, but this is **Dio The Internet White Knight** you’re facing here. **Dio** ’s always ready to go out and save every woman from herself. If a woman looks underage and decides to have sex with an older man, chooses to be in a polyamorous relationship, or decides to marry a man recommended by her parents, have no fear, **Dio** is here to save her with his patented “1,000 posts by lunchtime” technique! Well, unless her name is Jenn Sperger and she happens to be accusing St. Brett Favre of something. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/25 "2010-10-27T16:23:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Nobody said they were, but arranged marriage is still coercive in indirect ways. Actually, no, that’s not the case. In fact, it was never the case ever that all arranged marriages were forced, and many of the ones which were “forced” had nothing behind them except family disapproval, which varied widely in importance in time and place. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/26 "2010-10-27T16:24:56Z")
What the fuck does any of that have to do with this thread? I haven’t said shit about women. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/27 "2010-10-27T16:25:53Z")
I realize it seems to be open season on **Dio** lately, and I’ve seen a number of threads where it’s been with more than a trivial amount of justification. This isn’t one of them. Here’s the quote that Dio was responding to in the original thread: > [@](#): > > I’ve heard of it working the way that **even sven** And **One and Only Wanderer** mention it. The way my mom explained it to me (and no, I’m not getting into one) is more like parents or relatives will introduce you to some people–kind of a set up. It’s no more forceful than a blind date or matchmaking. There’s a big difference between “no more forceful than a blind date or matchmaking” and what \*\*Crotalus \*\*just described: > [@](#): > > about thirty have married people who were selected for them by their parents in India. They were not forced or coerced to marry these people, they had the option to say no, but their prospective spouses were chosen by their parents from suitable families, their correspondence was initiated formally by their parents, their first meeting was arranged by their parents, and they themselves call these “arranged marriages”. In the situation Crotalus described, there’s nothing forced about it, but it’s unquestionably an arranged marriage - others are doing the arranging, and the participants expect that they’re going to marry the person selected for them unless serious alarm bells go off when they correspond with or meet the person chosen for them. Marriage is the default option. If someone sets you up for a blind date, OTOH, any thoughts about marriage on anyone’s part are purely speculative. If someone goes on a blind date, marriage is unquestionably NOT the default. And even if the couple being set up do turn out to hit it off and eventually get married, those who introduced them will probably have nothing to do with planning the festivities. Anything that can properly be compared with that is NOT NOT NOT an arranged marriage. **Dio** is absolutely right here. Find something else to jump on his ass about. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/28 "2010-10-27T16:26:03Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Actually, no, that’s not the case. In fact, it was never the case ever that all arranged marriages were forced, and many of the ones which were “forced” had nothing behind them except family disapproval, which varied widely in importance in time and place. Threatened disapproval is coercion. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/29 "2010-10-27T16:28:41Z")
I would point out with respect to expats and South Asian expats especially they tend to have a far more traditional view of arranged marriage then people back home. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/30 "2010-10-27T16:32:23Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > And thus, I feel it’s my duty as an expert to say that marriage itself is almost always a forced event and corrosive upon all relationships. Yeah, and then you find out your aunts have been killing drifters and burying them in the cellar… ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/31 "2010-10-27T16:32:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Threatened disapproval is coercion. And it’s also super-common in even non-arranged marriages, either to try to break up a pair or to try to push one partner to go ahead and marry the other, so I fail to see why it’s so important here. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/32 "2010-10-27T16:34:20Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I would point out with respect to expats and South Asian expats especially they tend to have a far more traditional view of arranged marriage then people back home. They’re worried about assimilation and loss of cultural heritage. The main thing they want is for their kids to marry within their ethnicity. Marrying outside of their ethnicity can be greeted with anything from simple disapproval to outright ostracization or disownership. That’s why I keep trying to make the point that they are not necessarily coerced into marrying a specific person, but they are strongly pressured into marrying within an approved pool. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/33 "2010-10-27T16:39:44Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > And it’s also super-common in even non-arranged marriages, either to try to break up a pair or to try to push one partner to go ahead and marry the other, so I fail to see why it’s so important here. I’m not sure what you mean by “important,” but all I said was that the coercion exists, I didn’t comment in its “importance.” I also don’t see how it’s a defense of the practice to point out that its worst characteristics can also exist outside of the practice. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/34 "2010-10-27T16:44:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They’re worried about assimilation and loss of cultural heritage. The main thing they want is for their kids to marry within their ethnicity. Marrying outside of their ethnicity can be greeted with anything from simple disapproval to outright ostracization or disownership. That’s why I keep trying to make the point that they are not necessarily coerced into marrying a specific person, but they are strongly pressured into marrying within an approved pool. But that’s true even when there is no “arranged marriage.” You can have no formal arrangement in your culture and still be pissed when your daughter brings home a black guy as her fiance. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/35 "2010-10-27T16:47:50Z")
For those of you without a scorecard, the thread currently stands at: “Arranged marriage” - definition in dispute “Forced marriage” - definition in dispute “Coerced” - definition in dispute “Important” - definition in dispute Updates will be posted as required. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/36 "2010-10-27T16:48:10Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But that’s true even when there is no “arranged marriage.” You can have no formal arrangement in your culture and still be pissed when your daughter brings home a black guy as her fiance. True. So what? How does that refute arranged marriage being coercive? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/37 "2010-10-27T16:49:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > True. So what? How does that refute arranged marriage being coercive? Well, it means that there’s probably some level of coercion in everything we do. The level of coercion present in those cultures with arranged marriages is probably similar to that in our culture. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/38 "2010-10-27T16:51:21Z")
It’s not even close, in my opinion, and it’s not typical in the culture for parents to screen acceptable applicants. It’s certainly not the norm any more to confine parental approval to a specific ethnicity (not unheard of, but no longer the norm). I guess I don’t understand what’s even being disputed anymore. My contention was that arranged marriages are coercive. If we agree on that, then what’s the beef? What am I wrong about? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/39 "2010-10-27T16:53:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Threatened disapproval is coercion. It’s so true. My parents once said they didn’t think I should spend all my Christmas money on Metallica CDs and it was exactly like they robbed me at gunpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/40 "2010-10-27T16:56:07Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > It’s so true. My parents once said they didn’t think I should spend all my Christmas money on Metallica CDs and it was exactly like they robbed me at gunpoint. Do you believe that this is a valid analogy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521.md?page=3)