# Dio, you are just wrong. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 27, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521 "2010-10-27T14:42:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/101 "2010-10-27T19:12:57Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > It’s so true. My parents once said they didn’t think I should spend all my Christmas money on Metallica CDs and it was exactly like they robbed me at gunpoint. Depending on when this happened, they probably did you a favor. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/102 "2010-10-27T19:16:45Z")
I wonder if someone will give me the name of a culture which cheerfully admits to having forced marriages. I think today that this is considered sexist enough, world wide, so the practice is hidden as an arranged marriage. As a cite on arranged marriages, I offer you “Fiddler on the Roof.” If you remember one of the daughters, who is to be married to an old rich guy she hates, convinces Tevye to have a convenient dream which causes her arranged partner to be shifted to someone she actually loves. This is shown as one of the ways in which the traditional culture was breaking down. There is also a continuum. The Mormons I know do not have arranged marriages, but the culture is very strong in encouraging young people to marry within the church. I’m Jewish and this applies to me also. Not me personally, since my grandfather, who was an atheist, considered that back in the '30s it was okay for one of his daughters to marry a Catholic. My uncle being a Dodgers fan was far more important. My wife isn’t Jewish, and the rabbi even at her college wanted no part in marrying us. Anyhow, you can tell if the culture has arranged marriages by looking to see what happens if a young person goes outside the approved list of candidates. If this is fine, then no arranged marriage as a rule. If it is not, then arranged marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/103 "2010-10-27T19:18:16Z")
If Dio is just wrong, I don’t want to be right. ETA: I promised myself I wouldn’t waste time on the boards today, and here I am posting this kind of silliness and getting into debates about “gay horse” analogies. Somebody stomp my head for me. ---
**Author:** ![Dante](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dante/32/9673_2.png) [@Dante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/104 "2010-10-27T19:19:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Tell me what I’m wrong about. Don’t just drive by and drop a random, meaningless insult. Have the guts to debate me. Nobody’s going to take this one? Really? Something something burning irony something? No? Damn. > [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Sometimes I doubt you even read your own posts. With a post count like his, there ain’t no time for readin’. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/105 "2010-10-27T19:21:11Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > It’s so true. My parents once said they didn’t think I should spend all my Christmas money on Metallica CDs and it was exactly like they robbed me at gunpoint. How about if they wanted to prevent you from buying anything but classical music CDs? Or pressured you to buy CDs only from an approved list? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/106 "2010-10-27T19:21:45Z")
**Dio** , buddy, whatza deal? We were both here for ever, and you used to get pitted…what?..once, twice a year? Now, seems like every other day, its “Diogenes…” Can’t be everybody else’s fault. So whats got a burr under your saddle? What happened to the sweet, wimpy guy we could push around a little? Kemosabe, I think it must be time to dial it down a notch. Yer pal, **e.** ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/107 "2010-10-27T19:22:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > How about if they wanted to prevent you from buying anything but classical music CDs? … You mean like Zappa? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Weird\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Weird\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Weird_One)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/108 "2010-10-27T19:23:27Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’d add that these selections are restrictive - in that the couple has no or limited opportunity to look outside of them. Otherwise [match.com](http://match.com) is the biggest arranger of marriages in the world. The major difference is that people who meet on [Match.com](http://Match.com) may only be dating casually, and if they are looking for someone to marry, almost certainly expect to fall in love with their partner prior to marriage. People on Match are still looking for a love marriage, they’re just using the internet as a tool to increase the chances of finding someone with whom to fall in love. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/109 "2010-10-27T19:24:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > As a cite on arranged marriages, I offer you “Fiddler on the Roof.” If you remember one of the daughters, who is to be married to an old rich guy she hates I don’t think she hated him. How could you hate a guy with a cool name like Lazar Wolf? It’s like hating a _Thundercats_ character. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/110 "2010-10-27T19:35:27Z")
I can’t remember…are they allowing pulling up lawn chair posts in the pit these days, or not? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/111 "2010-10-27T19:37:47Z")
You keep it moving, I’ll give you that. Here you define arranged marriage as provincial and restrictive: > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Even in your rosy little paradigm, however, the practice is still provincial and restricted. The subjects are not allowed to marry outside their ethnic groups and don’t have the option of not getting married at all. Then coercive [Quote=DTC] My contention was that arranged marriages are coercive [/Quote] [Quote=DTC] They are, for all practical purposes, forced marriages. [/Quote] When\*\* Even Sven \*\* (among others) gives an example of an arranged marriage where the family pre-screen possible mates that is very like the description from Wikipedia, and you say: [Quote=DTC] That’s not arranged marriage. [/Quote] Here you’ve excluded the middle and redefined everyone else’s examples away. After this you’ll start to complain about how \*you’re \*not the one changing definitions. Eventually \*\*Freudian Slit plays \*\*into your hands with: [Quote=Freudian Slit] They’re setting people up on dates with the goal that this will, hopefully, end in marriage. [/Quote] At which point, you begin asking everyone, regardless of what they’re trying to say to you, regardless of their opinion, whether or not you think dating is the same as arranged marriage. I anticipate someone will eventually say no, all dates are not the same as arranged marriage, at which point you will declare victory, having semantically travelled from “All arranged marriages are forced” to “Dating is not arranging a marriage” as your…for want of a better word…point. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/112 "2010-10-27T19:38:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You are falsely defining “forced marriage” as necessarily involving death threats. Well, of course. In **ZPG’s** world, everything involves death threats. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/113 "2010-10-27T19:45:30Z")
> [@The\_Weird\_One](#): > > The major difference is that people who meet on [Match.com](http://Match.com) may only be dating casually, and if they are looking for someone to marry, almost certainly expect to fall in love with their partner prior to marriage. People on Match are still looking for a love marriage, they’re just using the internet as a tool to increase the chances of finding someone with whom to fall in love. You wouldn’t know it from watching their ads. But [match.com](http://match.com) is not arranging marriages, and neither is the stereotypical mother or aunt (but she has a lovely personality.) The important difference is that you going outside the reservation has no adverse consequences. There are a lot of ways in which pressure is applied. If the culture has no approved means of meeting the opposite ex except through parents of Yentes, that is one. Not having any place where you can go with a member of the opposite sex is another. A guy who used to work for me came back from India with a wife. He came from a wealthy family, and I got the impression him marrying someone picked for him was just assumed. At a certain point in my life it would have been a lot simpler if this was all done for me, but as it worked out I’m glad it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/114 "2010-10-27T19:46:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You mean like Zappa? Or Rick Wakeman. (Not as good as Zappa I know.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/115 "2010-10-27T19:48:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t think she hated him. How could you hate a guy with a cool name like Lazar Wolf? It’s like hating a _Thundercats_ character. Let’s just say she wasn’t jumping at the prospect of sleeping with him. Now everyone watch out, or I’ll post some of the lyrics and you’ll get such an earworm. Mazel tov, mazel tov… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/116 "2010-10-27T19:54:24Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > You keep it moving, I’ll give you that. Here you define arranged marriage as provincial and restrictive: > > Then coercive Yep, I was correct in both cases. > [@](#): > > When\*\* Even Sven \*\* (among others) gives an example of an arranged marriage where the family pre-screen possible mates that is very like the description from Wikipedia, and you say: > > Here you’ve excluded the middle and redefined everyone else’s examples away. After this you’ll start to complain about how \*you’re \*not the one changing definitions. No, I just refused to let THEM move the goal posts. Setting up a date is not arranging a marriage. There is no excluded middle. That’s exactly the kind of specious, back-pedaling, definition-changing that people were trying to do. > [@](#): > > At which point, you begin asking everyone, regardless of what they’re trying to say to you, regardless of their opinion, whether or not you think dating is the same as arranged marriage. > > I anticipate someone will eventually say no, all dates are not the same as arranged marriage, at which point you will declare victory, having semantically travelled from “All arranged marriages are forced” to “Dating is not arranging a marriage” as your…for want of a better word…point. Both of those statements are correct. Arranged marriage is coercive, and setting up dates is not arranging marriage. You cannot refute the first statement by trying to claim that setting up dates is arranging a marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/117 "2010-10-27T19:56:41Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > How about if they wanted to prevent you from buying anything but classical music CDs? > Or pressured you to buy CDs only from an approved list? Then I’d ask my parents how I could get 10 CDs for just a penny!\* [sub]\*Just paying separate shipping and handling on each[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/118 "2010-10-27T19:57:45Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > I anticipate someone will eventually say no, all dates are not the same as arranged marriage, at which point you will declare victory, having semantically travelled from “All arranged marriages are forced” to “Dating is not arranging a marriage” as your…for want of a better word…point. Dating is not the issue, fixing up people is. Providing a list of candidates (even if it is of length one) is necessary for an arranged marriage, do you agree? What Dio is saying, and everyone seems to be missing, is it is not sufficient for an arranged marriage. That requires some level of coercion to prevent or very strongly discourage the person from picking a partner not on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/119 "2010-10-27T19:58:58Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Then I’d ask my parents how I could get 10 CDs for just a penny!\* > > [sub]\*Just paying separate shipping and handling on each[/sub] And all you have to do is top agree to buy 537 over the next ten years at our low, low club prices! (When I did it it was LPs.) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/120 "2010-10-27T20:03:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yep, I was correct in both cases. > > No, I just refused to let THEM move the goal posts. Setting up a date is not arranging a marriage. There is no excluded middle. That’s exactly the kind of specious, back-pedaling, definition-changing that people were trying to do. > > Both of those statements are correct. Arranged marriage is coercive, and setting up dates is not arranging marriage. You cannot refute the first statement by trying to claim that setting up dates is arranging a marriage. The problem here is that some folks are saying in reality there is a _spectrum_ of possible arranged marriages - they vary between situations which are clearly coercive, to ones which appear more like a matchmaking service run by one’s own relations (shudder!) where the “coercion” is much more tenuous, if it exists at all (for example, the one example I personally know of, described upthread, the “matchmaking” was only done after both parties failed to find mates on their own - hard to describe that as coercive, assuming of course it fits the definition of “arranged”). The task you face is decribing why there is a hard-line cut-off to the definition, so that only those arrangements which are truly coerceive are ‘arranged marriages’. I’m not saying you are wrong, but so far, you aren’t convincing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521.md?page=7)