# Dio, you are just wrong. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 27, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521 "2010-10-27T14:42:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/141 "2010-10-27T22:20:27Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Concede that coercion is not a necessary component of arranged marriage Do you consider cultural pressure a form or coercion? Don’t underestimate it. I never even dated a non-Jewish girl before I met my wife. Her parents were certainly not hostile or unfriendly, but there is a certain level of comfort in going to my other girlfriend’s house for a Seder - you fall right into things. Now imagine a culture where going outside the arranged marriage alienates both sets of parents and no doubt most or all friends and family, and doing things differently from all the models you have for getting married. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/142 "2010-10-27T22:22:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In theory, maybe, but not in practice. . . . and you know this after a comprehensive survey of all participants in arranged marriages? No, you know this by magical intuition? Waity, you know this because _you_ could never be personally involved in ausch a situation wihtout feeling coerced? What, praytell, supports this “in theory, not in practice” conclusion? Certinaly not the testmony of many in this thread. My fiend, you have what we in the business call a credibility gap. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/143 "2010-10-27T22:23:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, actually, Hodel marrying Perchik the revolutionary wasn’t so bad. It was Chava marrying (oy!) Fyedka the Christian that was a big deal. Yeah, forgot about that one. Haven’t seen the play in years - was supposed to last Spring, but it got canceled and tney did Gypsy instead (almost the same. 🙂 ) But you can see the slippery slope - gaming the arranged marriage system, then abandoning it with a Jew, and then abandoning it with an (oy) Christian. We see this as a triumph of love and freedom, but I doubt if my great-grandfather the holy man would have. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/144 "2010-10-27T22:26:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Do you consider cultural pressure a form or coercion? Don’t underestimate it. I never even dated a non-Jewish girl before I met my wife. Her parents were certainly not hostile or unfriendly, but there is a certain level of comfort in going to my other girlfriend’s house for a Seder - you fall right into things. Now imagine a culture where going outside the arranged marriage alienates both sets of parents and no doubt most or all friends and family, and doing things differently from all the models you have for getting married. I do. Keep in mind, the issue is not, “do some people feel coerced as a result of cultural pressure?” The issue is, “is coercion a necessary product of cultural pressure associatd with arranged marriage.” For example, my culture may frown upon marrying the left-handed, but if I am in no way physically or emotionally attrratced to any left-handed, then that cultural pressure really never comes to bear. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/145 "2010-10-27T22:28:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Yeah, forgot about that one. Haven’t seen the play in years - was supposed to last Spring, but it got canceled and tney did Gypsy instead (almost the same. 🙂 ) But you can see the slippery slope - gaming the arranged marriage system, then abandoning it with a Jew, and then abandoning it with an (oy) Christian. We see this as a triumph of love and freedom, but I doubt if my great-grandfather the holy man would have. You could still have the cultural pressure to marry within a ethnicity and not have an arranged marriage, if there is no third party arranging a marriage. **Dio** was very firm on the necessity of a third party arranger for a marriage to qualify as arranged. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/146 "2010-10-27T22:32:02Z")
nevermind ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/147 "2010-10-27T22:35:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In theory, maybe, but not in practice. Concede that coercion is both a necessary component of a forced marriage and the only necessary characterstic that distinguishes between an arranged marriage (by defintion) and a forced marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/148 "2010-10-27T22:59:50Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Concede that coercion is both a necessary component of a forced marriage and the only necessary characterstic that distinguishes between an arranged marriage (by defintion) and a forced marriage. I do not recognize such a distinction as a functional reality. In reality, arranged marriage cultures are coercive. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/149 "2010-10-27T23:02:01Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > You could still have the cultural pressure to marry within a ethnicity and not have an arranged marriage, if there is no third party arranging a marriage. **Dio** was very firm on the necessity of a third party arranger for a marriage to qualify as arranged. So what? I didn’t say that all marriages involving cultural pressure to marry within one’s culture were arranged. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/150 "2010-10-27T23:08:22Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > My fiend, you have what we in the business call a credibility gap. Personal fiend? With a pitchfork sitting on your shoulder? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I do not recognize such a distinction as a functional reality. In reality, arranged marriage cultures are coercive. What societies are “non-coercive” societies? ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/151 "2010-10-27T23:08:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I do not recognize such a distinction as a functional reality. In reality, arranged marriage cultures are coercive. What distinguished a forced marriage from an arranged marriage, then? Let’s limit this to definitional distinctions. You’ve concede that a non-coercive arranged marriage is possible. We have testimony that such marriages exist. In light of your prior concession, you cannot dismiss that testimony out of hand. We also have a defined term that describes what we can also call a “coercive arranged marriage” - the term is “forced marriage.” For the sake of clarity, then, doesnt it make more sense to limit the term “arranged marriage” when not modified by the term coercive to non-coercive arranged marriages (even if such a thing is merely theoretical) and to describe arranged marriages involving coersion and force as “forced marriages.” We do this on the off chance that you experince, vast though it might be, is still not representational of the universe of marrital situations and that perhaps, such a thing as a non-coercive arranged marriage is more than just theoritical. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/152 "2010-10-27T23:09:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So what? I didn’t say that all marriages involving cultural pressure to marry within one’s culture were arranged. Which would explain why I wasn’t responding to you. Clue: it only looks like the sun revolves around you. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/153 "2010-10-27T23:10:52Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Personal fiend? With a pitchfork sitting on your shoulder? the word choice was a deliberate pun ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/154 "2010-10-27T23:14:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So what? I didn’t say that all marriages involving cultural pressure to marry within one’s culture were arranged. is this [you](http://images.buddytv.com/articles/South_Park/Images/eric_theodore_cartman_southpark.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/155 "2010-10-28T00:08:53Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > What societies are “non-coercive” societies? Extinct ones. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/156 "2010-10-28T00:51:29Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > What distinguished a forced marriage from an arranged marriage, then? Nothing, necessarily. They overlap. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/157 "2010-10-28T00:53:09Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > What societies are “non-coercive” societies? I don’t understand this question. “Non-coercive” of what? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/158 "2010-10-28T00:55:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t understand this question. “Non-coercive” of what? Well, picture a society that runs on coercion. And then… not that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/159 "2010-10-28T01:14:28Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Well, unless her name is Jenn Sperger and she happens to be accusing St. Brett Favre of something. When was this? Link? (To **Dio** ’s comments, I mean. I tried to search and didn’t find anything) ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521/160 "2010-10-28T02:36:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In theory, maybe, but not in practice. Cite? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I do not recognize such a distinction as a functional reality. In reality, arranged marriage cultures are coercive. The problem here is that nobody said you get to define the terms yourself, we all know you’d just define yourself as right. I notice that you didn’t address the definitions I linked to, if you don’t like them why don’t you show us where you got your definitions. No, you can’t just make them up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dio-you-are-just-wrong/558521.md?page=9)