# Diogenes, a word about your behavior.. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 25, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223 "2006-08-25T17:08:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/101 "2006-08-25T20:10:02Z")
I’m not going to be like **Dio** by posting this in the original thread and this looks like a good alternative. I could be wrong but _something_ seems fishy. What sort of person looks for sympathy via their very first post? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/102 "2006-08-25T20:10:10Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] It wasn’t clear to me from the OP that that is what happened. It might have been an anembryonic pregnancy (the embryo dies off early or fails to develop), or SadDad’s wife miscarried before she went to the hospital. Maybe I read the OP incorrectly, and if so, I stand corrected. But it doesn’t matter in terms of what’s being discussed here. [/QUOTE] And not to branch out too much into the realm of metaphysics, how different is the grief you feel at that point from the grief from having a baby die at, say, a day old? I would have had an older sister, but she died a few hours after being born. I haven’t talked about it that many times with my mother, but she told me once about what it was like. It’s remarkable exactly how similar what she reported was to what I’ve heard about miscarriage - it’s terribly painful to part from all your hopes and dreams for the child’s future. That seems to be the case whether it’s a child, or a fetus, or (as Diogenes has explained to us) nothing at all. It’s not as though my mother, in a few hours with Kim, got to know her and get used to her personality. Even if she’d been more than a few hours old, babies are frankly pretty much interchangeable. Diogenes could have just as easily used the same line of reasoning to explain to my mother about how she hadn’t had the baby that long, and it’s not like they’d played Parcheesi together, so it’s not really anything to get upset about. And beyond simply having hopes and dreams for a child, there’s a tremendously powerful biology underlying how parents feel about their children. Not that I want to distill a parent’s feeling for a child down to hormones, but it’s simply ridiculous to expect a parent’s feelings about their child to be rational. It’s not like you only love a child because it’s such a good piano player or finger-painter. You can’t even have a normal conversation with the damn things till they’re about ten years old. It’s starkly intellectually dishonest for Diogenes to attempt to pretend that a parent’s feelings towards an infant or a young child are somehow rooted in something more rational than their feelings towards a pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/103 "2006-08-25T20:11:54Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] I’m not going to be like **Dio** by posting this in the original thread and this looks like a good alternative. I could be wrong but _something_ seems fishy. What sort of person looks for sympathy via their very first post? [/QUOTE] I DID think that when I first read it, yes. However, I think the point is, **Dio** is pretty much insulting anyone who’s ever been in the kind of situation that **SadDad** supposedly is. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/104 "2006-08-25T20:12:07Z")
**Diogenes the Cynic** should be renamed Diogenes the Self-Righteous. Just my humble suggestion. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/105 "2006-08-25T20:13:17Z")
[QUOTE=The Swan] Holy crap. Who said that?!?? [/QUOTE] You did. I can’t quote within quotes–the directions to do so sound like origami as translated from the Japanese to me, but I copied and pasted it. Quote: Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic I have a wife and two kids. Do they count as human contact? Yep. Very limited.\<----that’s from you, **Swan** What is up with the mean-ness? I suppose no-one here has every said anything tactless in RL or on the boards. I don’t even like **Dio** all that much, but jeesh, c’mon already. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/106 "2006-08-25T20:16:33Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] NONE of that matters, though. The point is, to **SadDad** and his wife, there WAS a baby. It doesn’t matter if it wasn’t the medically correct term-they still felt the loss. [/quote] I’m sorry. I can’t go along with the assertion that a false pregnancy is exactly the same kind of tragedy as a dead child. There’s something of a false binary in this thread about how my position is being characterized. It’s being suggested that I think that no one should feel bad at _all_ over the loss of a pregnancy (false or otherwise). That’s not something i ever said or suggested. I said in my first post that it was “sad” and “disappointing.” I just think that comparing a false pregnancy (as rotten and as heartbreaking as it may be) to the loss of an actual child (or even fetus) is a little hyperbolic. Think about it. If you had to choose going through a false pregnancy or the loss of say, a six month old baby, would you have any trouble at all in making that decision? Do you really think the latter is not worse than the former? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Swan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_Swan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Swan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/107 "2006-08-25T20:17:37Z")
[QUOTE=Walter Windchill] AWell, I’ve also posted my general eye-roll at this kind of thread, which reminds me of a schoolyard of children circling a boy who’s wetted his pants, calling him names. Just because I roll my eyes at such a circle doesn’t mean I support pants-wetting. [/QUOTE] What a crappy analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/108 "2006-08-25T20:17:49Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I’m sorry. I can’t go along with the assertion that a false pregnancy is exactly the same kind of tragedy as a dead child. There’s something of a false binary in this thread about how my position is being characterized. It’s being suggested that I think that no one should feel bad at _all_ over the loss of a pregnancy (false or otherwise). That’s not something i ever said or suggested. I said in my first post that it was “sad” and “disappointing.” I just think that comparing a false pregnancy (as rotten and as heartbreaking as it may be) to the loss of an actual child (or even fetus) is a little hyperbolic. Think about it. If you had to choose going through a false pregnancy or the loss of say, a six month old baby, would you have any trouble at all in making that decision? Do you really think the latter is not worse than the former? [/QUOTE] Maybe so, but it’s NOT the time, nor the place, to play the “Let’s measure the Proper Grief Hierarchy”. Do you not understand this? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Swan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_Swan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Swan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/109 "2006-08-25T20:19:31Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] You did. I can’t quote within quotes–the directions to do so sound like origami as translated from the Japanese to me, but I copied and pasted it. Quote: Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic I have a wife and two kids. Do they count as human contact? Yep. Very limited.\<----that’s from you, **Swan** What is up with the mean-ness? I suppose no-one here has every said anything tactless in RL or on the boards. I don’t even like **Dio** all that much, but jeesh, c’mon already. [/QUOTE] Bullshit. “Very limited” was in reference to “human contact”. If you think that means I consider Dio’s family to be “barely human” then you need to apply for a clue. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/110 "2006-08-25T20:19:50Z")
[QUOTE=Mtgman] **Diogenes the Cynic** should be renamed Diogenes the Self-Righteous. Just my humble suggestion. Enjoy, Steven [/QUOTE] I’ve been impressed by the complete lack of self-righteousness by those indulging in the public shaming of Diogenes. Even as they sharpen their pitchfork tines, they’ve been nothing but a good-tempered mob willing to listen to all sides. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/111 "2006-08-25T20:20:21Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] You did. I can’t quote within quotes–the directions to do so sound like origami as translated from the Japanese to me, but I copied and pasted it. Quote: Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic I have a wife and two kids. Do they count as human contact? Yep. Very limited.\<----that’s from you, **Swan** What is up with the mean-ness? I suppose no-one here has every said anything tactless in RL or on the boards. I don’t even like **Dio** all that much, but jeesh, c’mon already. [/QUOTE] Here’s how I read **Swan** ’s post: Yep [you do have some human contact]. [But it’s] Very limited [ie, only your wife and kids]. I don’t think \*\*Swan \*\*implied that his family was only partially human. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/112 "2006-08-25T20:20:21Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] I DID think that when I first read it, yes. However, I think the point is, **Dio** is pretty much insulting anyone who’s ever been in the kind of situation that **SadDad** supposedly is. [/QUOTE] That would be true if I said that people have no right to feel bad about false pregnancies, but that’s not what I said. If it’s really your position that anyone who feels the death of a born child is worse than a false pregnancy is “inhuman, hateful and heartless,” then I guess we just see things differently. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/113 "2006-08-25T20:20:53Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Maybe so, but it’s NOT the time, nor the place, to play the “Let’s measure the Proper Grief Hierarchy”. Do you not understand this? [/QUOTE] Yes, he has explained that he does. Several times. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/114 "2006-08-25T20:20:58Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] He said in his OP that there wasn’t a fetus. As matter of fact, he used the words “no baby.” Is there some reason we shouldn’t take that at face value? [/QUOTE] Right, but again, he didn’t know that at first. Nor did his wife. As I said earlier, hysterical pregnancy so closely mimics a regular pregnancy, it’s impossible to tell the difference without an ultrasound. Hormonal and physical changes, all usually caused by an intense desire to have a child and causing yourself to believe- not just think “maybe I’m pregnant”- but _believe_ so intensely that there is no question in your mind that you are pregnant. Your body plays a very dirty trick on itself. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/115 "2006-08-25T20:21:07Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] That would be true if I said that people have no right to feel bad about false pregnancies, but that’s not what I said. If it’s really your position that anyone who feels the death of a born child is worse than a false pregnancy is “inhuman, hateful and heartless,” then I guess we just see things differently. [/QUOTE] No, I said your comments were “inhuman, hateful, and heartless”, because they were. It doesn’t MATTER which loss is greater, asshat. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/116 "2006-08-25T20:21:41Z")
[QUOTE=The Swan] Bullshit. “Very limited” was in reference to “human contact”. If you think that means I consider Dio’s family to be “barely human” then you need to apply for a clue. [/QUOTE] I think what Swan meant to say is, “oh, I think you misread me. I merely meant that his _contact_ was limited.” But why not mix a little poison into every post? After all, every one of us is just too good to be true, our shit the odor of perfume, and anyone who dares question us or have a slightly different opinion is a repugnant beast, fit for nothing but the toes of our boots. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/117 "2006-08-25T20:21:43Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Here’s how I read **Swan** ’s post: Yep [you do have some human contact]. [But it’s] Very limited [ie, only your wife and kids]. I don’t think \*\*Swan \*\*implied that his family was only partially human. [/QUOTE] He’d still be wrong in that assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/118 "2006-08-25T20:22:29Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] Yes, he has explained that he does. Several times. [/QUOTE] And yet, he continues to do just that. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/119 "2006-08-25T20:23:17Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] I’m not going to be like **Dio** by posting this in the original thread and this looks like a good alternative. I could be wrong but _something_ seems fishy. What sort of person looks for sympathy via their very first post? [/QUOTE] I didn’t interpret it as “looking for sympathy,” as much as “looking for someplace to vent.” And why not? Why is that any less worthy of a first post as, say, venting one’s rage at some politician, or sharing a silly story? Is there some sort of tradition that a newcomer should first tell 5 bland anecdotes before trying to be funny, and then 3 humorous stories before he/she can express rage or sorrow? ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/120 "2006-08-25T20:23:31Z")
(Upon learning that Diogenes has a wife and kids.) [QUOTE=Excalibre] And ever since I learned that, I have always wondered what in the world it must be like for them. [/QUOTE] Oh my god. Would you give the guy a break? If one time you make an insensitive remark (which is also truthful) then your wife and kids probably have a bad life? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223.md?page=7)