# Diogenes, a word about your behavior.. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 25, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223 "2006-08-25T17:08:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/161 "2006-08-25T20:46:12Z")
(First, this is false analogy because both scenarios involve an actual death. A false pregnancy does not (not even of a fetus). Second, I didn’t tell anybody how they should feel. I offered an ill-advised opinion about how they should have advertised what happened in a thread title.) [QUOTE=Miller] Yeah, I figured you’d say as much. You really are an asshole, **Dio**. [/QUOTE] Did anything in the above statement make him a worse person in your opinion? Was it pointing out that it was a false analogy? Or admitting that he was ill-advised? or what? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/162 "2006-08-25T20:46:40Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I thought he was _deceptive_ in how he worded the thread title and that he was deceptive in an emotionally manipulative way. [/QUOTE] **Diogenes** , unlike some of the posters here, I rather like you. I generally find your posts in GD a pleasure to read and quite informative. So please take my next paragraph as coming from someone who wants you to keep posting in general, okay? Stop it. Stop defending yourself. Stop justifying yourself. Take your wife’s advice and stop beng a jerk on the boards. Apologize and move on. Also send me some cheesecake. I loves me that cheesecake. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/163 "2006-08-25T20:47:10Z")
[QUOTE=The Swan] For the record. I was implying that IF DtC only had contact with 3 people (clearly not the case, as DtC has pointed out), then it would be limited human contact. It would not matter who those 3 people are, human contact would still be limited. It doesn’t mean they are limited people, or whatever the hell you got from it. I was simply saying that 3 people is not a lot of people. Period. He straightened me out on it. This is just weird. [/QUOTE] yep, it’s weird and stupid, since he obviously has contact with more than 3 people in his life. I’ll stop beating this horse–it’s like teaching a pig to dance. Or something (and no, I am not calling you a pig). Do we both speak English? 😕 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/164 "2006-08-25T20:48:27Z")
[QUOTE=The Swan] For the record. I was implying that IF DtC only had contact with 3 people (clearly not the case, as DtC has pointed out), then it would be limited human contact. It would not matter who those 3 people are, human contact would still be limited. It doesn’t mean they are limited people, or whatever the hell you got from it. I was simply saying that 3 people is not a lot of people. Period. He straightened me out on it. This is just weird. [/QUOTE] **Swan** , I got what you were saying and I didn’t think you were insulting my family. But you _were_ incorrect in trying to nail me as some kind of misfit or shut in (I have a normal family life, friends, neighbors, professional associates, etc). Just because I responded with some ill-advised irritation on a message baord thread doesn’t mean I’m riddled with social inadequacies. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/165 "2006-08-25T20:48:54Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I think of some you still don’t get the point. This has nothing to do with human contact or empathy-- it’s all about rigid political ideology. Abortion rights must be defended at all cost, and we cannot allow someone to refer to a fetus (or embryo, or whatever) as a “baby”, a “child”, or even an “unborn child”. No matter that we, as a culture, would never allow elective abortion at 8+ months pregnancy. That almost full term fetus simply cannot be called a baby (undorn or otherwise), on pure ideological grounds. Therefore, we cannot allow to stand the idea that someone might grieve for this fetus in the same way one might grieve for a “real” baby. The English language must be purged of such terms, and humans must be purged of such emotions. My worldview is truth, and anything contrary to that truth must be squashed. [/QUOTE] I find your ideas intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/166 "2006-08-25T20:49:09Z")
I note that Diogenes still hasn’t addressed the fact that _no_ grief is rational. Grief is not based on a rational analysis of what has happened. Elsewise you’d never see a Christian or Muslim grieving for a dead family member - logically, given their beliefs, since that person is (presumably) in heaven, and you’ll be reunited with them eventually, what’s to get upset about? But that’s just not how grief works. It’s fundamentally not a rational thing and Diogenes is attempting to draw the most ridiculous distinction imaginable - under the logic he’s presenting, it would be rational for SadDad to grieve more if his wife miscarried a 12-week-old fetus, because that involves a “real death”. How much grief are you supposed to feel if you simply miscarry and don’t know for certain whether there was a fetus developing or not? An intermediate amount, depending on the odds of whether it was a blighted ovum or a fetal death? Diogenes is, per usual, making up ridiculous “logical” reasoning to support his irrational outbursts, and per usual, the logic doesn’t hold up. [QUOTE=eleanorigby] It was **excal** who was the more insulting towards **Dio’s** family re the whole “wondering what life must be like for them”. [/QUOTE] Excuse me? I didn’t insult his family. I indicated that I feel sorry for them. I have for quite some time. It must be freaking awful to be married to, or the child of, someone as cold and unfeeling as Diogenes. ---
**Author:** ![stretch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@stretch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stretch)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/167 "2006-08-25T20:49:10Z")
from the original [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7715257&postcount=19): > [@Diogenes](#): > > The mere loss of a pregnancy, while sad and disappointing, is not even close to the devastation of the loss of an actual child. To equate those things is an insult to everyone who’s ever lost a child. Condolences to the OP but he needs to man up a little bit. He’s coming off as a little self-absorbed to me and I think his thread title is misleading. > [@Diogenes](#): > > I said I thought he was 'coming off as self-absorbed," not self-righteous. > > As I said in the other thread the “man up” and “self-absorbed” comments were made in reference to how he said he was treating his wife, not to how he felt about the loss of the pregnancy. Sounds like backpedaling, asshole. There is no indication in your real post that you are referring to his behaviour towards his wife–rather, you seem to directly link the loss of a pregancy with his need to “man up” and his coming off as self-absorbed. You don’t mention a word about his wife. and upon preview: > [@Diogenes](#): > > I thought he was deceptive in how he worded the thread title and that he was deceptive in an emotionally manipulative way. Could you answer my question please? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/168 "2006-08-25T20:50:06Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I think of some you still don’t get the point. This has nothing to do with human contact or empathy-- it’s all about rigid political ideology. Abortion rights must be defended at all cost, and we cannot allow someone to refer to a fetus (or embryo, or whatever) as a “baby”, a “child”, or even an “unborn child”. No matter that we, as a culture, would never allow elective abortion at 8+ months pregnancy. That almost full term fetus simply cannot be called a baby (undorn or otherwise), on pure ideological grounds. Therefore, we cannot allow to stand the idea that someone might grieve for this fetus in the same way one might grieve for a “real” baby. The English language must be purged of such terms, and humans must be purged of such emotions. My worldview is truth, and anything contrary to that truth must be squashed. [/QUOTE] OMG. Did you read the OP or is this a whoosh of high magnitude? There was never a pregnancy–it was an empty yolk sac. The OP and his wife THOUGHT they were pregnant and he is grieving the loss of the dream of child #2. There was never an embryo, fetus, baby, child or anything. They thought there was–they were wrong. This has nothing whatever to do with pro or anti anything. **The Swann** --I think I need a beer. Let’s go poorly communicate somewhere… ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/169 "2006-08-25T20:50:15Z")
I have had a child die as well. This would be a real, actual, not fake child by **Dio’s** criteria. She died at 6 weeks old in my arms even though she checked out perfectly healthy when she was born. Hopefully that is the worst thing that ever happens to me and I will be scarred for life but even at the time, I knew that there could be something was. I had my three year old daughter around me all the time when Sophie was sick and I admit that I often thought, thank god it is the baby and not her. That is the way those things work in my mind. A miscarriage is horrible but not as bad as losing a newborn which isn’t as bad as losing a 10 year old. My next daughter was born about a month ago and my wife and I wouldn’t have taken a miscarriage with her well at all. Actually, it might have prompted a suicide or three but it worked out. **Diogenes** seems to have some significant cognitive and emotional impairment either caused by or exacerbated by an obsession with the abortion issue. This causes both socially unacceptable behavior and outbursts that don’t make any sense to outside observers. While I always, have sympathies to the psychotic and delusional, it does create problems for innocent bystanders like the original OP. **Diogenes** seems to be extremely religious in his own way holding strongly to the belief that humans do not exist in any form until they pass through the vagina and receive the Holy Spirit that gives them body and soul. Another explanation is that [b}Diogenes\*\* just misses a development milestone himself at an early age. For example: **Diogenes** might very well have some developmental milestones that are stuck at the level of a 2 year old. **Object Permanence** “A cognitive milestone, usually reached in the second or third year, when a child is able to understand that an object exists even when it’s out of view.” Failure to understand this concept would cause someone to believe that only things you can see exist. It makes games of Peek-A-Boo very entertaining but causes horrible agitation when people refer to things that are out of sight as if they exist. This would make many things imaginary in his little world and therefore unworthy of any grief. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/170 "2006-08-25T20:52:09Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Excuse me? I didn’t insult his family. I indicated that I feel sorry for them. I have for quite some time. It must be freaking awful to be married to, or the child of, someone as cold and unfeeling as Diogenes. [/QUOTE] And if you can’t see the mean-spiritedness in that–then I guess you can’t see it. It’s pretty unfeeling, though. sorry to hijack. back to the blood in the water, folks! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Swan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_Swan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Swan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/171 "2006-08-25T20:52:09Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] yep, it’s weird and stupid, since he obviously has contact with more than 3 people in his life. [/QUOTE] Yes, Dio has regular contact with more than 3 people. He said so earlier. I wouldn’t say that it was obvious, however. > [@](#): > > I’ll stop beating this horse–it’s like teaching a pig to dance. Or something (and no, I am not calling you a pig). I think the saying you are looking for is: “Never wrestle with a pig. You get all muddy, and the pig likes it.” One of my personal favorites. > [@](#): > > Do we both speak English? > 😕 > > 🙂 I do, but you said something about Japanese earlier. Sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/172 "2006-08-25T20:52:51Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I think of some you still don’t get the point. This has nothing to do with human contact or empathy-- it’s all about rigid political ideology. Abortion rights must be defended at all cost, and we cannot allow someone to refer to a fetus (or embryo, or whatever) as a “baby”, a “child”, or even an “unborn child”. No matter that we, as a culture, would never allow elective abortion at 8+ months pregnancy. That almost full term fetus simply cannot be called a baby (undorn or otherwise), on pure ideological grounds. Therefore, we cannot allow to stand the idea that someone might grieve for this fetus in the same way one might grieve for a “real” baby. The English language must be purged of such terms, and humans must be purged of such emotions. My worldview is truth, and anything contrary to that truth must be squashed. [/QUOTE] My comments didn’t have anything to do with my feelings about abortion, **John** , they really didn’t. That issue honestly never even entered my mind when I wrote them. I was coming from a different place altogether. I don’t expect it would ever be possible to convince anyone of that, though. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/173 "2006-08-25T20:53:38Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I think of some you still don’t get the point. This has nothing to do with human contact or empathy-- it’s all about rigid political ideology. Abortion rights must be defended at all cost, and we cannot allow someone to refer to a fetus (or embryo, or whatever) as a “baby”, a “child”, or even an “unborn child”. No matter that we, as a culture, would never allow elective abortion at 8+ months pregnancy. That almost full term fetus simply cannot be called a baby (undorn or otherwise), on pure ideological grounds. Therefore, we cannot allow to stand the idea that someone might grieve for this fetus in the same way one might grieve for a “real” baby. The English language must be purged of such terms, and humans must be purged of such emotions. My worldview is truth, and anything contrary to that truth must be squashed. [/QUOTE] Gah, **John** , I hope you’re wrong. Really. I support the same political stance for the same reasons (pretty much), but if someone insists that their 6 month fetus is a baby and a person _to them_, who the fuck am I to argue? If **Dio** truly is espousing the opinion you say, he’s forgotten what the “choice” part of “Pro-choice” is supposed to mean. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/174 "2006-08-25T20:53:43Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] OMG. Did you read the OP or is this a whoosh of high magnitude? There was never a pregnancy–it was an empty yolk sac. The OP and his wife THOUGHT they were pregnant and he is grieving the loss of the dream of child #2. There was never an embryo, fetus, baby, child or anything. They thought there was–they were wrong. This has nothing whatever to do with pro or anti anything. [/QUOTE] Do you really believe it would have made a difference to **Diogenes** if it had been a “real” fetus? 'cause I don’t think it would have. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/175 "2006-08-25T20:54:24Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] OMG. Did you read the OP or is this a whoosh of high magnitude? There was never a pregnancy–it was an empty yolk sac. The OP and his wife THOUGHT they were pregnant and he is grieving the loss of the dream of child #2. There was never an embryo, fetus, baby, child or anything. They thought there was–they were wrong. This has nothing whatever to do with pro or anti anything. **The Swann** --I think I need a beer. Let’s go poorly communicate somewhere… [/QUOTE] Yes, you were whooshed, big time. It’s okay, I’ve been there. Got a drink for me? I don’t drink beer, but I wouldn’t mind an iced tea… ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/176 "2006-08-25T20:54:24Z")
I read the MPSIMS thread, thought pretty much the exact things that **Diogenes** said, then thought better of posting them and bowed out silently. The only difference between him and me in this particular instance is that my filter is a little tighter than his. So in coming here and apologizing for posting his opinions, without apologizing for the opinions themselves, he’s made himself OK by me. FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Swan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_Swan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Swan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/177 "2006-08-25T20:54:39Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] **The Swann** --I think I need a beer. Let’s go poorly communicate somewhere… [/QUOTE] Sure thing. I like beer a lot. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/178 "2006-08-25T20:54:41Z")
Ah. And I will learn to make preview my friend. Thanks for clearing that up, **Dio** ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/179 "2006-08-25T20:57:44Z")
How would this have gone over IRL? **saddad** : We just lost our baby. [Crowd gathers to hear story of an obvioulsy sad and grieving man who relates the story as told in the OP] **Indiviudal #1** : So sorry! **Individual #2** : My deepest symathies\*\*. **Dio** : Yeah, sorry and all that, although it wasn’t really a baby now was it? **saddad** : Excuse me? **Dio** : Well, I mean you said your baby died and it completely got me to walk over here from over there, to listen to your story and it turns out it was reallly just some hardly realized hopes and a few cells. Serously, that was totally uncool of you. I feel so emotionally manipulated and I totally resent that. Call me when you lose a real child. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223/180 "2006-08-25T20:57:46Z")
[QUOTE=holmes] Do you really believe it would have made a difference to **Diogenes** if it had been a “real” fetus? 'cause I don’t think it would have. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I do. He’s a father–hell, he’s a person. And now I find my sympathies turning from the OP and those who have suffered losses like the OPs (even if some of them are a wee over the top with their vitriol) to **Dio**. Hell, if y’all just want to dump on him-be honest about that. Now we have people dragging up shit that doesn’t even pertain to this thread aka his views on abortion. This is definitely getting weirder by the minute. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-a-word-about-your-behavior/370223.md?page=10)