# Diogenes the Cynic disprespects the military **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 12, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174 "2004-01-12T14:45:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/61 "2004-01-14T18:29:58Z")
**hypnoboth** , your OP is the most stupid thing I ever read on this Boards, by far. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/62 "2004-01-14T19:59:36Z")
> [@amoeba](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > amoeba’s idea was that the US has no enemies > > was not. despite my lack of clarity, please refrain from future misrepresentation. considering the sound bashing you inflicted on my sorry ass (which was farking hilarious btw) you now have less justification for said wupping. I’ll be more careful, if you will. > > MY idea was that the U.S. has a habit of creating enemies, and likes trying out new weapons. I’ll be as careful as I can, but when you post stuff like > [@](#): > > 1. we don’t need weapons for defence or attack. there is no identifiable enemy. it is hard not to conclude that you meant that there is no enemy. > [@Reeder](#): > > Please show me where I said the only reason for an army to exist is to create total carnage. OK. > [@Reeder](#): > > But to say Armies aren’t for doing the most damage they can is a specious statement at best. Or did you use the word “specious” without knowing what it meant? > [@Evil Captor](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > If the purpose of the army is to do as much damage as possible, why didn’t we shoot everyone in sight, burn down their villages, and rape their cattle? > > Because their villages are made of mud buildings that don’t burn so well and the cattle might give us mad cow disease? Who sprayed me with stupid pheromones? [ul] [li]Use napalm[/li][li]Wear a condom[/li][li]Hi Opal![/li][/ul] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/63 "2004-01-14T23:41:38Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > **hypnoboth** , your OP is the most stupid thing I ever read on this Boards, by far. New around here, eh? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![amoeba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@amoeba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amoeba)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/64 "2004-01-15T00:46:46Z")
my point was a little more subtle than it ‘came across’. ‘the enemy within’ refers to a battle with our own sense of identity and the grouping of stereotypes into colours. In fact, a new form of war has arisen with no outward signs of hostility. The corporations U.S. citizens _work for_ need weapons for attack and defence and unite their nationality under uniformity and protocol. You, it seems, were superimposing your own notions of a collective, due to a sense of patriotism, yet even now, those identities are dissolving. Provided ‘star wars’ and the ‘evil empire’ stays on the ground, there should be no need to panic, and no more panic-mongering on my behalf. I am all for global unity. It is interesting that you looked at my profile and created a false dichotomy for the sake of construing xtra terrestrial life. Admittedly, distance makes for cultural differentiation, yet ‘aliens’ are rapidly intermingling. where you draw the line, is anyones guess. as an aside, I am happy that you took your time to publicise such gracious, cutting wit, at my expense. should you feel the urge, you are quite welcome to disparage any of what falls under this handle. empty my cup and it shall be refilled. now, I am fascinated to know why ‘koorea’ views ‘United states’ as a threat- I hope it isn’t anything you have done. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/65 "2004-01-15T02:39:45Z")
> [@amoeba](#): > > my point was a little more subtle than it ‘came across’. I certainly hope so. > [@amoeba](#): > > ‘the enemy within’ refers to a battle with our own sense of identity and the grouping of stereotypes into colours. Stereotypes into colors, or colors into stereotypes? And what weapons would one bring to a battle with one’s own sense of identity - mirrors? Fake ID? Work with me here… > [@amoeba](#): > > In fact, a new form of war has arisen with no outward signs of hostility. The corporations U.S. citizens _work for_ need weapons for attack and defence and unite their nationality under uniformity and protocol. You, it seems, were superimposing your own notions of a collective, due to a sense of patriotism, yet even now, those identities are dissolving. Dude, you lost me. I am not sure if I would recommend that you use drugs a lot more, or a lot less. Maybe, whatever you are doing, do the opposite. I am not sure my brain could survive more of your posts telling me that “a sense of patriotism will cause my collective to dissolve”. Incidentally, I work for a US corporation. What weapons do you expect we need? > [@amoeba](#): > > Provided ‘star wars’ and the ‘evil empire’ stays on the ground, there should be no need to panic, and no more panic-mongering on my behalf. I am all for global unity. Pssst - the “evil empire” was the USSR. It went bye-bye. I think it might be a little late to be panic-mongering on _their_ account. > [@amoeba](#): > > It is interesting that you looked at my profile and created a false dichotomy for the sake of construing xtra terrestrial life. Admittedly, distance makes for cultural differentiation, yet ‘aliens’ are rapidly intermingling. where you draw the line, is anyones guess. I didn’t look at your profile. I read your post. Aliens are rapidly intermingling, are they? You aren’t [this guy,](http://www.davidicke.com/)by any chance, are you? > [@amoeba](#): > > now, I am fascinated to know why ‘koorea’ views ‘United states’ as a threat- I hope it isn’t anything you have done. Beats hell out of me. They do shit like that - invade South Korea, starve their people whilst developing nukes, sign and break treaties brokered by that twit Jimmy, stuff like that. Regardless of the motives of their fun-loving leader Kim, ISTM that we might be wise to keep a few weapons around just in case he gets uppity again. YMMV, especially on a planet with a radically different gravitational attraction. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/66 "2004-01-15T03:01:30Z")
[QUOTE=Morgs] I disagree that it is the role of the military apparatus to kill or cause harm. These things are incidental. Their ‘role’ is the further the imperial/political ends of the government of the time. [QUOTE] The role of the U.S. Dept of State is to further the imperial/political ends of the U.S. Government. The U.S. Military goes in to kill foriegn people and break their things when they don’t listen to the State Department. Sure, the miltary also does positve things, and parts of the military train solely to do good things, but they are in the vast minority. Most military folks train to kill, or train to support those who kill, so the killers can kill better. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/67 "2004-01-15T03:03:26Z")
I would like to state for the record this new style sucks, too. Damned coding. ---
**Author:** ![amoeba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@amoeba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amoeba)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/68 "2004-01-15T03:37:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Stereotypes into colors, or colors into stereotypes? And what weapons would one bring to a battle with one’s own sense of identity - mirrors? Fake ID? Work with me here… well, what’s the latest fashion for your military? Didn’t the Iraq military resort to dressing in American uniforms? Without uniforms, or uniformity, no-one can fight. further, without a common cause there is no fight. > [@](#): > > Dude, you lost me. again, what and whom are we fighting _for_? who or what do we identify ourselves with? of course, this is all useless so long as professed leaders with professed power manage people and property. (this land is mine! there is a flag stuck on it. therefore, it is mine!) > [@](#): > > Aliens are rapidly intermingling, are they? you haven’t heard of multiculturalism? No? Oh well, we all love sneakers and baseball caps. roll on homogeneity. > [@](#): > > starve their people food is power. why don’t we give some away? > [@](#): > > Regardless of the motives of their fun-loving leader Kim, ISTM that we might be wise to keep a few weapons around just in case he gets uppity again. very wise. I have no objections to your secular worldview. If the suits want their way, why cant they just have a ‘punch out’ and leave the citizens to toil in other more productive ways. Anyway, I’m done with this. Pleased to meet you, whoever you might be. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/69 "2004-01-15T03:42:31Z")
[QUOTE=UncleBill] [QUOTE=Morgs] I disagree that it is the role of the military apparatus to kill or cause harm. These things are incidental. Their ‘role’ is the further the imperial/political ends of the government of the time. > [@](#): > > The role of the U.S. Dept of State is to further the imperial/political ends of the U.S. Government. The U.S. Military goes in to kill foriegn people and break their things when they don’t listen to the State Department. Sure, the miltary also does positve things, and parts of the military train solely to do good things, but they are in the vast minority. Most military folks train to kill, or train to support those who kill, so the killers can kill better. **Bill** , that point has been made – and soundly refuted – several times, both here and in the original thread. Military personnel are trained to inflict harm, _but only as a means to an end_. The infliction of harm is NOT the military’s purpose for existing. One may as well say that policemen exist to beat up on criminals. They don’t. Their purpose is to enforce the law, and this will frequently require physical violence toward criminals. If this violence can be avoided, it should be. A surgeon must often cut into helpless human beings, but that is not their purpose for existing. Their purpose is to cure. It just so happens that this will often require applying a scalpel to human flesh. If the patient can be cured without digging into their flesh, all the better. Cutting them open is a means to an end, not the end in itself. In the same way, the millitary does not exist to harm others. It must often cause this harm, but that is not their purpose for existing. If they can accomplish their goals without firing a single shot, they are considered victorious. All this repetitious whining about how soldiers are trained to kill truly misses the point. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/70 "2004-01-15T04:48:30Z")
> [@UncleBill](#): > > I would like to state for the record this new style sucks, too. > > Damned coding. Coding seems fine to me. Try using a ///////// at the end before “quote”. It does pretty much work the same as before. :rolleyes: Still a boring pit **DtC**. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/71 "2004-01-15T05:37:08Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > A surgeon must often cut into helpless human beings, but that is not their purpose for existing. Their purpose is to cure. It just so happens that this will often require applying a scalpel to human flesh. If the patient can be cured without digging into their flesh, all the better. Cutting them open is a means to an end, not the end in itself. This is an excellent analogy, except you’ve made one mistake: the military isn’t the surgeon, it’s the scalpel. ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/72 "2004-01-15T06:47:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This is an excellent analogy, except you’ve made one mistake: the military isn’t the surgeon, it’s the scalpel. _DUN DUN DUN!_ Sorry everyone. That line was just so good, I felt it needed sound effects. As you were. ---
**Author:** ![Morgs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c37758/32.png) [@Morgs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgs)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/73 "2004-01-15T07:14:46Z")
Boring pit thread huh? I’ll liven it up. Please don’t take this seriously. Come on, I’ll be your friend… 😃 Ah, indeed. Another key, though commonly overlooked, difference between the medical profession and the military is that surgeons generally don’t lose control in the middle of surgery and begin to randomly slash the genitals of their patients. This is a broad analogy that can be extrapolated into many points: Other key differences include. 1. Surgeons don’t lie to their patients about what diseases they have just so they can perform surgery. 2. Surgeons do not say shit like ‘the fact we have not located any tumours yet simply indicates the lengths you have gone to to hide them’, in order to justify their surgery. 3. There is no ‘collateral surgery’. When you have a triple bypass, you generally don’t come out with lacerated lungs, spleen, liver, and upper intestines. 4. A surgeon doesn’t go around performing surgery on people at random, then charging them for it. 5. There is no ‘axis of illness’. 6. A surgeon, when performing surgery, does not attempt to convert you to his religious/social beliefs, and does not make the success of his surgery contigent upon your change. 7. Surgeons, by and large, perform surgery when it’s needed, they don’t have to wait for a patient who has vast untapped oil reserves but lacks the infrastructure to use them. 8. Surgeons don’t factor the effect their work will have on improving their power base against competing industrial nations such as the European Union and China. 9. Surgeons make the decision to perform surgery based on evidence the indicates the patient needs it. Not based on whether or not the patient attacks them. 10. You don’t get ultra-conservative surgeons who perform invasive surgery on middle-eastern patients but recommend a course of alternative medecine and tai chi for european patients. 11. Surgeons don’t get their jobs by going on telly with no qualifications whatsoever and saying ‘I’m the best damn surgeon in the world, choose me and I’ll perform great surgery on you’. 12. There is no such thing as ‘friendly surgery’. A surgeon does not often accidentally stab himself do death while performing surgery. 13. Surgeons don’t piss their patients off by going to perform surgery on one, but missing and accidentally performing surgery on the guy next to him. 14. Surgeons do not, when they are on holiday in Vietnam and have become a little stressed out, instruct their underlings to 'perform surgery on ‘em’. 15. If a surgeon completely fucks up his surgery, he doesn’t go on TV the next day and say ‘the surgery was a complete success and the patient welcomed it with open arms’. 16. Surgeons do not blame communism when they bugger up incredibly easy procedures. 17. The surgeon general does not authorise coups against democratically elected foreign heads of state. (that one was deliberate). 18. When a surgeon himself goes in for surgery, the scalpel does not get blown up by an interceptor missile in its approach phase. 19. If, like ten years ago, Noam Chomsky had said something along the lines of ‘why is it that surgeons in the Khmer Rouge cop so much shit for their apallingly lax procedures when surgeons in Indonesia who are performing mass-surgery on the Timorese are just as bad’, he wouldn’t still, today, be suffering under accusations of being an apologist for Khmer surgeons. 20. and finally… surgeons have not yet created a retarded deck of cards with various diseases detailed on them. Aside from these key (though technical) differences, the analogy is flawless. Oh, and one other thing. The military is not the scalpel. The military is a gigantic spiked chainsaw, caked with dried intestines and human flesh\*. Irrespective of the talent of the surgeon in question, things will probably get ugly. \*other hyperbolic features include: - when it’s turned on, the bits stuck to it fly off and strike nearby nuns. - the auto-off safety feature has been disabled. - the chainsaw is so powerful that when turned on it immediately goes out of control and performs surgery on whoever happens to be standing nearby. - the chainsaw has neo-nazi slogans painted all over it. This is not to make it analogous with anything, just to make it more offensive. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/74 "2004-01-15T07:47:18Z")
> [@Morgs](#): > > Boring pit thread huh? I’ll liven it up. Please don’t take this seriously. Come on, I’ll be your friend… 😃 You forgot to say something about **Diogenes**. This is his pitting. He’ll be hurt. Respect dude. Oh, and I disagree with #1,3,4,10,13 & 15. These all happen occasionally. **DtC** hates puppies. Sheesh, how lame can you get **Diogenes**? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/75 "2004-01-15T08:37:56Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > **hypnoboth** , your OP is the most stupid thing I ever read on this Boards, by far. Come _on_. **hypnoboth** is certainly no wonder of genius, and he is most certainly quite confused, but the stupidest ever? What about **lekatt**? **johnny miles**? **Uekte**? **James Dean Tyler**? **GeoJon**? ---
**Author:** ![Morgs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c37758/32.png) [@Morgs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgs)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/76 "2004-01-15T08:38:12Z")
Oh, yeah. :smack: Behold: Man, that DtC sure is a person of markedly lower quality than would reasonably be expected. Oh, and feel free to disagree, I know my points are full of gaping holes. That’s the idea. If they weren’t, then surely Bush would have been impeached by now. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/77 "2004-01-15T08:51:28Z")
> [@Morgs](#): > > Oh, yeah. :smack: > > Behold: > > Man, that DtC sure is a person of markedly lower quality than would reasonably be expected. You’re on a roll now.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174/78 "2004-01-15T17:53:46Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > What about **lekatt**? **johnny miles**? **Uekte**? **James Dean Tyler**? **GeoJon**? Didn’t have the honour. Will make a point to catch up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-disprespects-the-military/224174.md?page=3)