# Diogenes the Cynic, Fount of Perfect Knowledge **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 20, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534 "2005-09-20T14:37:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/201 "2005-09-21T16:14:34Z")
> [@](#): > > jrfranchi wrote: > So you can teach science without teaching the prevailing theory of science. > I can have a knowledge of Physics but disregard the E=MC2 because I don’t like it. Jeez, I first thought this was satire it’s so facile. You do realize that physics classes don’t require understanding of time dilation and energy-mass conversion until pretty late in the game. And the “because I don’t like it” is bullshit strawmanning. Some parents may think it’s a topic that doesn’t need covering in homeschooling. Do you expect everyone will homeschool the basic theories behind everyone domain of human knowledge? Or is it just because evolution is on the front of the culture wars that it requires teaching. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/202 "2005-09-21T16:16:39Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Did you mean this. If so I stick by what I said. You should not selectively choose to ignore establish theory in teaching science. > By the way nice to answer criticism with curses. Sticking by what you said is not the same as supporting your assertions. > [@jrfranchi](#): > > So you can teach science without teaching the prevailing theory of science. So evolution is the prevailing theory not of just biology, nor specifically how organisms came to be in their current form, but ALL OF SCIENCE? I had no idea. “Why’s the sky blue?” “EVOLUTION!” “What makes the stars bright?” “EVOLUTION!” “What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?” “EVOLUTIO-… oh, wait. Yellow.” > [@](#): > > I can have a knowledge of Physics but disregard the E=MC2 because I don’t like it. Bad analogy. You CAN have a knowledge of physics without having knowledge of E=MC[sup]2[/sup], though. Newtonian mechanics covers every situation an average person is going to find themselves in. You can even get into electrodynamics, thermodynamics, and all kinds of stuff - all more practical than E-MC[sup]2[/sup], without ever being given that formula. Yes, it’s a key formula. Yes, it’s important - to some people. > [@](#): > > You are without reason. By your logic, I can just use 3 in place of PI because it is close enough. Again, spectacularly bad analogy. More apt would be “I can get through life without knowing the area of a Circle is Pi times the radius, squared.” Which is true. And if you don’t know anything about the spatial properties of circles, you really don’t care what Pi is equal to. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/203 "2005-09-21T16:20:10Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > You clearly stated > > Did you mean this. If so I stick by what I said. You should not selectively choose to ignore establish theory in teaching science. > By the way nice to answer criticism with curses. Where exactly do your lies rise to the level of criticism? My friend knows that certain plants flourish in the sun, and others in the shade. Does she have _any knowledge_ of biology? Dp you believe that it is \*impossible \* to have _any knowledge_ of biology of without knowledge of evolution? Can you show me how my statement necessarily leads to the assertions that > [@jfranchi](#): > > So you can teach science without teaching the prevailing theory of science. > I can have a knowledge of Physics but disregard the E=MC2 because I don’t like it. > You are without reason. By your logic, I can just use 3 in place of PI because it is close enough. Do you understand what is meant by an _abolute statement_? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/204 "2005-09-21T16:22:41Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > You clearly stated > > Did you mean this. If so I stick by what I said. You should not selectively choose to ignore establish theory in teaching science. > By the way nice to answer criticism with curses. Where exactly do your lies rise to the level of criticism? My friend knows that certain plants flourish in the sun, and others in the shade. Does she have _any knowledge_ of biology? Do you believe that it is \*impossible \* to have _any knowledge_ of biology of without knowledge of evolution? Can you show me how my statement necessarily leads to the assertions that > [@jfranchi](#): > > So you can teach science without teaching the prevailing theory of science. > I can have a knowledge of Physics but disregard the E=MC2 because I don’t like it. > You are without reason. By your logic, I can just use 3 in place of PI because it is close enough. What do you mean by my “logic?” I have merely asked **Dio** to explain an obvious overstatement. Do you understand what is meant by an _abolute statement_? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/205 "2005-09-21T16:24:29Z")
I think jrfranchi’s position is that science teachers should model scientific inquiry and the scientific method. It’s fine to say evolution is not crucial to understanding biology, but permitting teachers to omit very important tenets of biology puts forth the notion that “science” is a cafeteria where we select the beliefs we find tasty, and refuse to even taste those things we dislike. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/206 "2005-09-21T16:24:29Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Where exactly do your lies rise to the level of criticism? My friend knows that certain plants flourish in the sun, and others in the shade. Does she have _any knowledge_ of biology? > > Dp you believe that it is \*impossible \* to have _any knowledge_ of biology of without knowledge of evolution? > > Can you show me how my statement necessarily leads to the assertions that > Do you understand what is meant by an \*\*_abolute \*\* statement_? I have no idea what an \*\*abolute \*\* statement is. It sounded like you where advocating teaching basic biology without teaching the basics of Evolution. Knowing that plants like sun or shade is not really Biological science it is more hobby. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/207 "2005-09-21T16:27:58Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > You clearly stated > > Did you mean this. If so I stick by what I said. You should not selectively choose to ignore establish theory in teaching science. > By the way nice to answer criticism with curses. Where exactly do your lies rise to the level of criticism? My friend knows that certain plants flourish in the sun, and others in the shade. Does she have _any knowledge_ of biology? Do you believe that it is \*impossible \* to have _any knowledge_ of biology of without knowledge of evolution? Can you show me how my statement necessarily leads to the assertions that > [@jfranchi](#): > > So you can teach science without teaching the prevailing theory of science. > I can have a knowledge of Physics but disregard the E=MC2 because I don’t like it. > You are without reason. By your logic, I can just use 3 in place of PI because it is close enough. What do you mean by my “logic?” I have merely asked **Dio** to explain an obvious overstatement. Do you understand what is meant by an _abolute statement_? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/208 "2005-09-21T16:30:22Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > I have no idea what an \*\*abolute \*\* statement is. Points for honesty. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/209 "2005-09-21T16:37:46Z")
> [@](#): > > **cricetus** : > but permitting teachers to omit very important tenets of biology puts forth the notion that “science” is a cafeteria where we select the beliefs we find tasty, and refuse to even taste those things we dislike. Right, it’s a strawman. The reasons people choose not to teach evolution is not neccessarily because it’s found “untasty”. Some people think education is for making someone capable of interacting with his world and the people in it, not to turn everyone into an egghead. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/210 "2005-09-21T16:37:58Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > I have no idea what an \*\*abolute \*\* statement is. > > It sounded like you where advocating teaching basic biology without teaching the basics of Evolution. > Knowing that plants like sun or shade is not really Biological science it is more hobby. An absolute statement allows for no other possibility than the one stated. Such as “all swans are white.” The presence of a black swan refutes it. It _sounded_ like? That is what cause your leap of inference? And that was enough to raise your ire and write lies about me? Who said anything about biological science? Knowing _one fact_ about biology is all that is required to refute Dio’s statement. Are you asserting that person’s whose hobby is biology have know knowledge of biology? I think you are in over your head here. You need to recant and regroup. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/211 "2005-09-21T16:39:40Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > I have no idea what an \*\*abolute \*\* statement is. > > It sounded like you where advocating teaching basic biology without teaching the basics of Evolution. > Knowing that plants like sun or shade is not really Biological science it is more hobby. An absolute statement allows for no other possibility than the one stated. Such as “all swans are white.” The presence of a black swan refutes it. Words like ‘always,’ ‘never,’ and ‘impossible’ are clues that it might be an absolute statement. It _sounded_ like? That is what cause your leap of inference? And that was enough to raise your ire and write lies about me? Who said anything about biological science? Knowing _one fact_ about biology is all that is required to refute Dio’s statement. Are you asserting that person’s whose hobby is biology have know knowledge of biology? I think you are in over your head here. You need to recant and regroup. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/212 "2005-09-21T16:40:21Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > I have no idea what an \*\*abolute \*\* statement is. > > It sounded like you where advocating teaching basic biology without teaching the basics of Evolution. > Knowing that plants like sun or shade is not really Biological science it is more hobby. An absolute statement allows for no other possibility than the one stated. Such as “all swans are white.” The presence of a black swan refutes it. Words like ‘always,’ ‘never,’ and ‘impossible’ are clues that it might be an absolute statement. It _sounded_ like? That is what cause your leap of inference? And that was enough to raise your ire and write lies about me? Who said anything about biological science? Knowing _one fact_ about biology is all that is required to refute **Dio’s** statement. Are you asserting that person’s whose hobby is biology have _no knowledge_ of biology? I think you are in over your head here. You need to recant and regroup. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/213 "2005-09-21T16:42:19Z")
Don’t make me repeat myself! ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/214 "2005-09-21T16:49:48Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Don’t make me repeat myself! LOL Calmly now: (that is me) Do you believe Evolution should not be taught in school? I ask because I am afraid we are not arguing the same point. If you read what I posted, I am arguing that not teaching evolution is wrong and wrong headed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/215 "2005-09-21T16:51:05Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What’s the practical use of geometry or history or American Lit to most people? Is _anything_ necessary? I didn’t realize so many people around here were so hostile to education. > > I give up. Go ahead and teach your magic fairy stories to your kids and pretend it’s an “education.” Keep them illiterate while you’re at it. We are making the distinction between what we (or anyone else) might think is necessary for a good education, and what is mandated by the 14th amendment. I’m sure I’d be happy to send my kids to school with a curriculum that you yourself designed. But I wouldn’t say that that curriculum was mandated by the 14th amendment. See the difference? > [@](#): > > Obviously children have no rights and I’m just wrong. Actually, children do have rights, but you are also wrong. Children don’t have a \*\*right \*\*to an education at all. Any state could simply decide that public education was no longer available to anyone. But even when the state does provide for public education, children don’t have a \*\*right \*\*to be taught about evolution (or any other particular subject). ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/216 "2005-09-21T16:54:48Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There is no blind spot, here, you’re all just full of shit and reaching to try to score a point. I’m sure you don’t care, but remember when I said you were acting like every other self-righteous asshole Buppet on the board? You’re demonstrating it again. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/217 "2005-09-21T17:28:41Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > LOL > > Calmly now: (that is me) > > Do you believe Evolution should not be taught in school? > > I ask because I am afraid we are not arguing the same point. > > If you read what I posted, I am arguing that not teaching evolution is wrong and wrong headed. I believe that evolution should be taught in school. I am responding to your lies about me. Show me anywhere I stated evolution should not be taught in schools. Read my post again, and your response. Read what my post was in response to. If we are not arguing the same point it is because you disguised your point so well by arguing against something else all together. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/218 "2005-09-21T18:09:32Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I believe that evolution should be taught in school. > I am responding to your lies about me. Show me anywhere I stated evolution should not be taught in schools. Read my post again, and your response. Read what my post was in response to. If we are not arguing the same point it is because you disguised your point so well by arguing against something else all together. I already quoted what I thought was an attack on Evolution being taught in school. What you said below appears to be anti-evolution. From what you just said, I mis-interpreted it. I was attacking the Anti-evolution position it looked like you were taking. So: Please forgive me, I mis-understood what you were saying. Hopefully you can at least see where I made the mistake. I do apologize, I live next to a state were the public schools are preparing to teach Intelligent Design. I am really sorry. I am :wally > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > That is priceless. I happen to think education of children is perhaps the most important role of society, but because I believe that it is possible to have knowledge of biology without having knowledge of evolution I am “hostile to education.” Why don’t you just admit you shot your mouth off instead of resorting to sarcasm and ad hominum attacks ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/219 "2005-09-21T18:09:41Z")
This thread sure has evolved into something alright. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/220 "2005-09-21T18:18:18Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > I am really sorry. I am :wally Apology accepted.Thank you. However, if you read my first response to you, you will see where you went wrong. > [@](#): > > **Dio** is the one claiming that knowledge of biology is _impossible_ without knowledge of evolution and then fleeing rather than backing it up. I refute that assertion _and that one alone_ and I am guilty of the crimes you allege? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534.md?page=12)