# Diogenes the Cynic, Fount of Perfect Knowledge **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 20, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534 "2005-09-20T14:37:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/241 "2005-09-21T19:42:46Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > To be more precise, my position is that the 14th Amendment assures children access to the same level of education as what is offered in public schools. If pubkic schools teach evolution, then all kids have a right to be educated about it and parents do not have a right to deprive their kids of that access. And if public schools teach kids how to spell antidisestablishmentarianism, do home schooled kids have to be taught that exact word, too? I would agree that if evolution is **a required part of the public school curriculum** , then a case can be made that it should be taught by homeschoolers, too. But if the state simply requires evolution to be taught in (elective) H.S. biology classes, then no go. Remember, \*Brown \*just said you can’t have seperate but equal. It didn’t say kids in Arkansas have to be taught the same things as kids in New York. If Arkansas doesn’t have a req’t to teach evolution in public schools, that isn’t a violation of the 14th amendment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/242 "2005-09-21T19:46:27Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Ok, but even on grammar school level it school be at least briefly gone over along with animal classifications. Probably only need a week or less to provide a basic grounding that the theory is out there. Probably. But are you aware that the classification system we use (ie, Linnaean) was developed about 100 years before _The Origin of Species_ was written? I remember learning about the animal claissifications and Mendelian heredity in 7th grade science at my public school, and we never discussed evolution. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/243 "2005-09-21T19:46:42Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > But that says nothing at all about whether it is necessary. (I’ve startd a GD thread if you care to check it out.) Ok, I will leave this thread and head to [that thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6605939#post6605939) ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/244 "2005-09-21T20:02:21Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > And if public schools teach kids how to spell antidisestablishmentarianism, do home schooled kids have to be taught that exact word, too? I would agree that if evolution is a required part of the public school curriculum, then a case can be made that it should be taught by homeschoolers, too. But if the state simply requires evolution to be taught in (elective) H.S. biology classes, then no go. We’re never going to get a consensus on this because state and local laws don’t go to the granular detail of which theories should be included in cirriculum. Step up a level and the states don’t even define which cirriculum should be used by non-public schools. There are no laws addressing the issue because it is a fantastic example of _de minimus non curat lex_(the law is not concerned with trifles). [Search the Texas code online](http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/cqcgi?CQ_STATCON_PROCESS_LOGIN=YES&CQ_USER_NAME=208.24.179.27&CQ_PASSWORD=statcon_pwd&CQ_LOGIN=YES) or your favorite state’s statutes for the word “evolution” if you’re interested. FYI it does not appear in ANY Texas state laws. Education code, criminal code, health code, none of it. The law doesn’t dictate at that level. Private and home schools have even more lattitude, and since they are, on average, turning out better educated students than public schools, even on topics like evolution, I see no reason to change things. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/245 "2005-09-21T20:10:05Z")
On a related note, should home schooling parents have the right to teach things which are factually and demonstrably false? Is it ok to teach that Michael Landon was the first US President or that diseases are caused by elves? Can they teach that 2=2=5? Do kids have any right of access to factual information at all or are they just chattel who parents have the right to brainwash as they see fit? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/246 "2005-09-21T20:16:39Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > What I want to know is if Dio thinks parents that homeschool their children (in Kansas only, perhaps) should be required, by his logic, to teach their children intelligent design. :D:D:D OW! That’s the best laugh I’ve had since the “There is no blind spot, here, you’re all just full of shit and reaching to try to score a point.” comment **Dio** made a couple pages ago. That would be some poetic justice wouldn’t it? Nanny state steps in to keep those loose canon homeschoolers in line and then, in typical left hand doesn’t know what the right hand’s doing fashion, the state board of education goes along and mandates Intelligent Design be taught. So now even the secular homeschoolers who were raising the next Nobel laureates in science have to teach ID. Fantastic. It would be like watching a train wreck. A horrible event, but you just can’t seem to stop staring. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/247 "2005-09-21T20:20:02Z")
The State of Kansas will never be able to teach ID, so no point is scored on that count. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/248 "2005-09-21T20:27:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > On a related note, should home schooling parents have the right to teach things which are factually and demonstrably false? Is it ok to teach that Michael Landon was the first US President or that diseases are caused by elves? Can they teach that 2=2=5? Do kids have any right of access to factual information at all or are they just chattel who parents have the right to brainwash as they see fit? I think, if we’re talking about state oversight of home schools, there should be an intent factor in any newly-created offense of “miseducating your child”. If the parents are setting out to fuck up the kid _a la_ “Rich Man, Poor Man, Beggar Man, Thief” type social experimentation then lock their asses up. If the parents actually believe Michael Landon was the first US President, or that 2 + 2 = 5 (which is true for sufficiently large values of 2) then they’re just wrong and we all have a right to be wrong. Someone who teaches ID versus evolution in good faith would get off here, even though their kids would still probably have a better education in other areas than the publically educated so it would all come out in the wash. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/249 "2005-09-21T20:35:09Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > On a related note, should home schooling parents have the right to teach things which are factually and demonstrably false? Is it ok to teach that Michael Landon was the first US President or that diseases are caused by elves? Can they teach that 2=2=5? Do kids have any right of access to factual information at all or are they just chattel who parents have the right to brainwash as they see fit? Not at the federal level, they don’t. I’m going to backtrack on what I said above about _Brown_, because I overstated the case. \*Brown \*talks about what the state can and cannot do in terms of students in a given school system, but it doesn’t say anything (AFAIK) about what parents can or cannot do. It also doesn’t say that every school district in a given state has to teach the same subjects or even be objectively at the same level. Each state can set its own standards for public, private and home school systems. The feds grossly overstepped their bounds in the busing fiasco of the 70s/80s, and I hope we’re past that kind of interference. I’m all for competency tests given to students before the move from one grade to the next, and if states want to impose that on homeschooled kids to, that’s fine with me. I don’t know what states do to certify that parents are capable of teaching their kids, but I don’t see any reason they can’t set standards, as long as those standards aren’t arbitrarily high so as to effectively eliminate home schooling as an option (let the couts sort that one out). But the Feds don’t have any business in education. To the extent that states take federal aid, they deserve what they get comming to them, though, in terms of federal regulations. If you’re going to feed at the federal trough, you’re gonna have to let the feds decide when feeding time and what slop is going to be dished out. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/250 "2005-09-21T20:40:43Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > When did I call you an asshole? I’ve called you self-righteous. > > Same difference. So, lemmie see if I have this straight here. Calling someone self-righteous is the exact **SAME** as calling them an asshole, but calling someone an asshole (“People who do X are assholes”) is **DIFFERENT** from calling them an asshole? That’s the argument you’ve made in this thread, I’m just trying to track the “logic” here. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/251 "2005-09-21T21:15:44Z")
This whole trainwre… er, thread… reminds me of [this book](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0028639898/103-5377140-1213442?v=glance), and my first reaction when I saw it. Er, maybe if you’re a complete idiot you shouldn’t be homeschooling. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/252 "2005-09-21T22:15:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Right, it’s a strawman. The reasons people choose not to teach evolution is not neccessarily because it’s found “untasty”. Some people think education is for making someone capable of interacting with his world and the people in it, not to turn everyone into an egghead. I don’t agree that a basic understanding of science makes someone an “egghead”, but even if it did, one of the reasons for public education is to Keep America Strong, especially economically, and backsliding in mathematics and the sciences is a sure way to Make America Weak, especially economically. I find it curious that a board committed to fighting ignorance would so overwhelmingly and explicitly arguing for ignorance – people are actually saying it’s not all that important for kids to learn basic sciences, basic physics, basic geometry. I knew this board had lost its way. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/253 "2005-09-21T22:26:50Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > I don’t agree that a basic understanding of science makes someone an “egghead”, but even if it did, one of the reasons for public education is to Keep America Strong, especially economically, and backsliding in mathematics and the sciences is a sure way to Make America Weak, especially economically. > > I find it curious that a board committed to fighting ignorance would so overwhelmingly and explicitly arguing for ignorance – people are actually saying it’s not all that important for kids to learn basic sciences, basic physics, basic geometry. I knew this board had lost its way. How about jumping into this [GD thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=336124) and explaining why it is basic. I am seriously looking for an answer. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/254 "2005-09-21T22:29:46Z")
I have a college degree that I use on a regular basis. I have a passing knowledge not only of evolution, but of the difference between evolution and abiogenesis. I garnered neither of these things from what I was taught at the elementary, high school, or college level, but from reading I have done since. In no way has my lack of extensive knowledge of the mechanics of evolution impaired my ability to function in the world. OTOH, I was never properly taught geometry. My lack of geometric knowledge (how to figure areas or volumes, as an example) often bites me in the ass. Not daily, perhaps, but close to it. That said, I don’t think anyone is arguing that learning the basics isn’t important, just that some basics are more important than others. I did not go into the life sciences, so more than a passing awareness of the Theory of Evolution (and the various hypotheses of Abiogenesis) would be wasted on me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/255 "2005-09-21T22:46:35Z")
Knowledge is good. Of that there is little doubt. What particular knowledge is useful, is highly debatable. I studied physics (and lots of math), and worked for most of my young adult years in a highly technical field. While doing so, I can’t recall ever using any math more advanced than taking the average of a group of numbers. I certainly had to understand lots of math in order to gain an understanding of physics and electronics, etc, but out in the real world, it has overwhelmingly lain fallow. I agree with the eariler sentiment about evolution. I took honors science classes all thru high school and barely encountered evolution. I’ve read a ton of books on the subject since then because it interests me. Most of my friends who are also highly educated, but had little interest in evolution couldn’t explain the simplest concepts about it to their children if they had to. Whenever the subject comes up, I’m astounded at how little they know. I’m not advoating a de-emphasis of teaching evolution, and I absolutely don’t advocate creationism or ID. But this idea that our kids will suffer unless we make absolutely sure that they get a good grounding in evolutionary theory is ridiiculous. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/256 "2005-09-21T22:52:39Z")
In case nobody’s pointed it out already, i shall now: The entire debate about wether there _should_ be a law about forcing parents to teach evolution is **entirely** beside the point. As in, absolutely and totally irrelevent with regard to the statements that spawned this debate. 1. **Mtgman** posted the claim “On many, many occasions he has advocated putting force of law behind his views.” 2. **DtC** called for a cite, presumably denying the claim by implication. (Or perhaps just out of curiousity. I dunno, I can’t read **DtC** ’s mind.) 3. **Mtgman** responded with a quote from **DtC** : “I believe that homeschooling parents should be obliged by the government to teach evolution-- or at least that the child should have to pass a test showing a basic understanding of the theory whether they believe it or not.” Wether it would be morally correct to have such a law, or wether such a law is implied by other laws, or even wether the specific law in question _already exists_ is entirely irrelevent. The quote clearly demonstrates **DtC** advocating having the government support a view that is (presumably) his. So **Mtgman** provided the requested cite, and his initial statement is partially supported. To be fully _proven_ of course, he’d have to list the other (many, many)-1 occasions. You may return to your dicussion now. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/257 "2005-09-21T23:13:55Z")
(many, many) - 3. Homeschooling, driving while on the phone, teenagers near others consuming alcohol. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/258 "2005-09-21T23:31:10Z")
Well spotted, **begbert**. [Maybe they’ll pay some attention to you saying it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6606051&postcount=240) My saying it probably didn’t register because I don’t own a house. Do you own a house? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/259 "2005-09-21T23:40:06Z")
I never actually DENIED supporting new legislation, I just asked for a cite because I couldn’t remember it. Congratulations, you found a couple of things I forgot about. Now why does that matter again? Nobody else wants laws? Is anyone who wants laws “self-righteous?” I’m still right about all those things, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/260 "2005-09-21T23:49:57Z")
No, people who refer to the things they want (as in, their own personal opinons) as flat out statements of absolute fact that the government and god both must back the speaker on, **they’re** self-righteous. (By the way, thanks for the “I’m still right about all those things, by the way.”. The thick irony of that comment given the discussion at hand made my day.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534.md?page=14)