# Diogenes the Cynic, Fount of Perfect Knowledge **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 20, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534 "2005-09-20T14:37:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/261 "2005-09-21T23:54:31Z")
And no, **kaylasdad99** I don’t own a house, and given my cleaning habits I probably shouldn’t be allowed to. I think that your use of sarcasm may have confused people a little though, allowing you to be overlooked. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/262 "2005-09-22T01:01:46Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > No, people who refer to the things they want (as in, their own personal opinons) as flat out statements of absolute fact that the government and god both must back the speaker on, **they’re** self-righteous. But you are explicitly NOT saying that DtC is self-righteous, right? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Schuyler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/54ee81/32.png) [@Schuyler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schuyler)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/263 "2005-09-22T04:13:03Z")
If I may disagree with what I perceive as an incorrect statement - that teaching biology, at the high school level, can disregard the fact of evolution (irregardless of whether the theory of evolution is taught). Quoting from the Preface to Biology, 4th ed. (1983) by Helena Curtis, page xxii (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > “The Introduction focuses on evolution, still the major theme of this text, **as it must be of all modern biology texts**. The chapter closes with a brief discussing of the controversies now going on. The purpose of this discussion is to make clear that there are two types of disagreement - one between scientists and nonscientists and the other between groups of scientists with opposing viewpoints. The former is not the business of science (though, of cause, of concern to scientists), whereas the latter is not only the business of science but indeed its life’s blood.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/264 "2005-09-22T04:25:49Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > …And save your shit about me being a follower of Robertson. I’m Catholic. (Also save your shit about the Pope.) Heavy demands on my self-restraint. Is there a cookie? ---
**Author:** ![Schuyler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/54ee81/32.png) [@Schuyler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schuyler)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/265 "2005-09-22T04:43:41Z")
If I might add a further quote, this one from Biology (1987) by Neil A. Campbell, page 11 (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > All of life is connected. Evolution, the transformation of life on Earth from its earliest beginnings to its apparently unending diversity today, **is the one biological theme that ties together all others**." Again, this is only to specifically address the issue of whether the fact of evolution should be taught in an introductory biology class. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/266 "2005-09-22T16:03:04Z")
> [@Schuyler](#): > > If I may disagree with what I perceive as an incorrect statement - that teaching biology, at the high school level, can disregard the fact of evolution (\*\*irregardless \*\*of whether the theory of evolution is taught). > > Quoting from the Preface to Biology, 4th ed. (1983) by Helena Curtis, page xxii (bolding mine): Emphasis added. Forget evolution, what’s being taught in English classes these days. 🙂 High School level? [Helen Curtis](http://www.thevillager.com/vil_95/helenacurtis81.html) (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > Helena Curtis, a noted science writer and **college biology textbook author** , died on Feb. 11 at the age of 81. She was a resident of Sag Harbor and Greenwich Village. But we’re talking (I think) about elementary school science classes. AFAIK, High School Biology is an elective, so no one has to take it if they don’t want to (or their parents don’t want them to). ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/267 "2005-09-22T16:17:35Z")
I think the goal posts have been seriously moved in this thread. There is a difference between teaching an understanding of evolution and acknowledging it as an underlying theory. I would say the former is extra in-depth biology education and the latter wat I would expect in “basic biology” education. I think the problemn is that a lot of people, particularly in the US, can’t seperate the teaching of evolution from the liberal-fundy culture wars. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/268 "2005-09-22T16:28:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think the goal posts have been seriously moved in this thread. There is a difference between teaching an understanding of evolution and acknowledging it as an underlying theory. I would say the former is extra in-depth biology education and the latter wat I would expect in “basic biology” education. > > I think the problemn is that a lot of people, particularly in the US, can’t seperate the teaching of evolution from the liberal-fundy culture wars. The original goalpost was that **Diogenes** is a know-it-all. Dio, you know-it-all! There, back on topic. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Schuyler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/54ee81/32.png) [@Schuyler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schuyler)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/269 "2005-09-22T16:33:32Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > AFAIK, High School Biology is an elective, so no one has to take it if they don’t want to (or their parents don’t want them to). Your point is well taken - middle school biology wouldn’t require the unifying theme of evolution. :smack: And my bad; this should have read: > [@Schuyler](#): > > If I may disagree with what I perceive as an incorrect statement - that teaching biology, at the high school level, can disregard the fact of evolution (irregardless of whether the theory of **natural selection** is taught). ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/270 "2005-09-22T16:43:25Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. Forget evolution, what’s being taught in English classes these days. 🙂 Don’t ask. Just don’t ask. -SisterCoyote, English Weenie and Grammar Enthusiast ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/271 "2005-09-22T17:14:40Z")
> [@SisterCoyote](#): > > Don’t ask. > > Just don’t ask. > > -SisterCoyote, English Weenie and Grammar Enthusiast How do you feel about neologisms, as coined by the pedantic, who want to appear smart by using multi-syllabic words, and evidently believe the words already exist? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/272 "2005-09-22T17:17:46Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > How do you feel about neologisms, as coined by the pedantic, who want to appear smart by using multi-syllabic words, and evidently believe the words already exist? I know you didn’t ask me, but I think such words are lexicomical. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/273 "2005-09-22T17:18:55Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. Forget evolution, what’s being taught in English classes these days. 🙂 > > High School level? [Helen Curtis](http://www.thevillager.com/vil_95/helenacurtis81.html) (emphasis added): > > But we’re talking (I think) about elementary school science classes. AFAIK, High School Biology is an elective, so no one has to take it if they don’t want to (or their parents don’t want them to). _I think_ biology was a requirement at my public High School in the early 1980’s. Physiology was an elective. Looking it up the state of California requires two years of science courses to graduate and assumes one will be in the life sciences, which in most public schools would probably be biology. But you’re definitely right about Curtis - I can look up right now and sitting across from my desk on a bookshelf is my college freshman major-level biology text circa 1985, written by Helen Curtis :). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/274 "2005-09-22T17:38:21Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > How do you feel about neologisms, as coined by the pedantic, who want to appear smart by using multi-syllabic words, and evidently believe the words already exist? I think my head hurts, and I should go have a lie-down before the vapors overtake me. Actually, I’m not necessarily opposed to neologisms. However, they’d better serve to enhance communication rather than weirding language. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/275 "2005-09-22T17:40:01Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > _I think_ biology was a requirement at my public High School in the early 1980’s. Physiology was an elective. Looking it up the state of California requires two years of science courses to graduate and assumes one will be in the life sciences, which in most public schools would probably be biology. > > But you’re definitely right about Curtis - I can look up right now and sitting across from my desk on a bookshelf is my college freshman major-level biology text circa 1985, written by Helen Curtis :). > > - Tamerlane I graduated from a public high school in the State of CA in 1987, and did not have to take biology; I was allowed to opt for chemistry instead. That said, I think those guidelines have been updated since I graduated, as I was only required to take one year of science. Unless somehow psychology (which I also took in high school) counts. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/276 "2005-09-22T18:00:43Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > _I think_ biology was a requirement at my public **High School in the early 1980’s**. Oh fuck, I’m older than **Tamerlane**. > [@SisterCoyote](#): > > I think my head hurts, and I should go have a lie-down before the vapors overtake me. Move over. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/277 "2005-09-22T18:15:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Oh fuck, I’m older than **Tamerlane**. > Regards, > Shodan gotcha both beat. come on sing w/me! It’s fun to join the A-A-R-P! ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/278 "2005-09-22T22:56:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Oh fuck, I’m older than **Tamerlane**. Plus I graduated on the slightly younger side, at 17 ;). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/279 "2005-09-22T23:22:00Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > _I think_ biology was a requirement at my public High School in the early 1980’s. Physiology was an elective. Looking it up the state of California requires two years of science courses to graduate and assumes one will be in the life sciences, which in most public schools would probably be biology. > > But you’re definitely right about Curtis - I can look up right now and sitting across from my desk on a bookshelf is my college freshman major-level biology text circa 1985, written by Helen Curtis :). > > - Tamerlane From the GD thread. I looked up the [science requirements in CA](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6610281&postcount=137), but didn’t see the part about one science class having to be in the life sciences. > [@](#): > > The high school science standards require more than two years of science courses for students to achieve the breadth and depth described. Schools and districts have strengthened the science curriculum, providing students the maximum opportunity to learn the standards while encouraging students to study further in science. In grades nine through twelve, standards that all students are expected to achieve in their science courses are unmarked; standards that all students should have the opportunity to learn in those courses are marked with an asterisk(\*). Those opportunities should be offered at every high school. That’s in the link “Introduction”. It just says 2 years of science. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/280 "2005-09-23T01:29:22Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > It just says 2 years of science. Right, which seems to be the technical standard. But note this on Ca High School science graduation requirement: _While the law is not explicit, one course generally focuses on the biological sciences and the other course focuses on physical sciences. Physical sciences may include physics, chemistry, or earth science. Two years of integrated science would also fulfill this graduation requirement, as long as biological and physical sciences are included._ From here: [http://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/gs/hs/hsgrscience.asp](http://www.cde.ca.gov/ci/gs/hs/hsgrscience.asp) So while the law doesn’t exactly demand a year in life sciences, I expect what has happened is given the wording above, some individual districts have mandated one year of biological sciences/biology as a local standard. That may have been the case at my school and may explain the difference between my experience ( if I’m remembering it correctly ) and **SisterCoyote** ’s. - Tamerlane [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534.md?page=15)