# Diogenes the Cynic, Fount of Perfect Knowledge **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 20, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534 "2005-09-20T14:37:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/161 "2005-09-21T05:30:58Z")
Nonsense **elucidator**. Poppycock and twaddle. **Diogenes** holds forth his opinion as the final word, his analysis as definitive, on numerous topics including those he knows jack shit about. IIRC there have been no less than three seperate pit threads which ran to six or more pages where people had to beat him about the head and shoulders with evidence and reasoning before he would back down from his stance. If that isn’t self-righteousness then nothing is. I’ve no interest in arguing with two such verbose gentleman as yourself and **Dio** at the same time, so I’ll leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine if the humble moniker change I’ve suggested would be fair or not. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/162 "2005-09-21T05:56:52Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Let’s say for the sake of argument that you’re right, and that it’s only my “opinion” that a child has a right to a decent education. Why does that make me an asshole? Do you actually DISAGREE with that opinion or do you think that parents have a right to completely withhold education from their children? Does a kid have a right to learn how to read? Am I a “self-righteous” asshole if I say that they do? What, exactly, the fuck is your problem? Let’s take it a step further. Just for shits and giggles. If you really want the Children[sup]TM[/sup] to learn stuff that may actually be beneficial to them, by all means learn 'em what you want. Let’s also teach them how to fire a 30.06 so they may garner a meal for thier family. Really, from some of your posts, it seems that we’re all doomed. When the shit hits the fan, we’re on our own. Halliburton will increase the price of oil to the point that fuel costs will prohibit trucks delivering meat to markets. We’re all on our own. (Though you’re invited to the cabin. I want to see insanity up close) 😛 How will the Children[sup]TM[/sup] ever cope? By going out and shooting dinner. Like our grandfathers did in a time of need. Why deny the knowledge of feeding a family in the certain shitstorm the world faces with another 3 years of Bush? Give the fucking kids a chance! ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/163 "2005-09-21T05:57:25Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Let’s say for the sake of argument that you’re right, and that it’s only my “opinion” that a child has a right to a decent education. Why does that make me an asshole? Do you actually DISAGREE with that opinion or do you think that parents have a right to completely withhold education from their children? Does a kid have a right to learn how to read? Am I a “self-righteous” asshole if I say that they do? What, exactly, the fuck is your problem? Here’s the issue. You, **Diogenes the Cynic** (as you call yourself on this board) do not get to define what constitutes a “decent education”. Nor do you have the authority to declare your definition as binding via the 14th amendment. You don’t get to define what counts as “inattentive driving” or the value of a person’s virginity, or the amount of deference which should be given to someone with an unfortunate, severe allergy. You don’t have the authority. None of us do. When did I call you an asshole? I’ve called you self-righteous. I think demonizing those with a different idea of what constitutes a “decent education” than you and saying the state should step in fits the bill. Belittling those whose virginity is important to them? Another check. Declaring your intent to deliberately flaunt a rule designed to safeguard a student’s life because you feel it is not sufficiently justified. Big time self-righteousness there, and the subject of one of your six-page pit threads IIRC. You disagree with the school’s administrators so you’ll deliberately defy them. Sure the kid could die, but what the fuck is that when set against the principle of imposing restrictions on **Diogenes** that he doesn’t agree with? Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/164 "2005-09-21T06:07:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Let’s say for the sake of argument that you’re right, and that it’s only my “opinion” that a child has a right to a decent education. Why does that make me an asshole? Do you actually DISAGREE with that opinion or do you think that parents have a right to completely withhold education from their children? Does a kid have a right to learn how to read? Am I a “self-righteous” asshole if I say that they do? What, exactly, the fuck is your problem? The problems is, you are trying to equate knowledge of evolution with the ability to read. \*\*Requiring \*\*that kids be taught evolution makes as much sense as \*\*requiring \*\*that they be taught Quantum Mechanics. Evolution is undeniably a critical part of Biology, but it’s just \*\*one \*\*aspect of \*\*one \*\*science. Is Biology even a reqirement in high school in most states? It’s been awhile for me, but IIRC, it was an elective like chemistry or physics. Some people took it, some didn’t. If there was a req’t to take one year of science, most kids took Biology because it was the easiest, but any of the others would have met the requirement. Do you think all these creationists (some 50% of the population who don’t “believe” in evolution) were all homeschooled by religious fundamentalists? Frankly, I’m all for beefing up the US school curiculum. Evolution would certainly be on the list of things to beef it up with, but it’d be pretty far down on the list. There are much bigger holes in eductation than a lack of an understanding of evolution. I’ll fight tooth and nail against the teaching of creationism in public schools. But if a homeschool curriculum is weak on evolution (or doesn’t address it all), BFD. The most you can do, as I said above, is test for it as part of some overall education req’t, but it’d be 1 or 2 questions out of 100. Wouldn’t make a lick of difference. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/165 "2005-09-21T06:35:16Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Here’s the issue. You, **Diogenes the Cynic** (as you call yourself on this board) do not get to define what constitutes a “decent education”. Why not? It’s not even really an “opinion” to say that an education cannot be sufficient without some sort of basic understanding of biology, and biology can’t be understood without understanding evolution. There is no difference between saying that a kid has a right to learn how to read (something I doubt you’d disagree with) and saying a kid has a right to learn about evolution. They are equally important parts of an education suffient to merit any kind of accredited high school diploma or GED, and equally important to make a student eligible for college. This is not a controversial view, nor is it something I’ve come up with on my own. Do YOU believe that a basic education can be complete without a knowledge of evolution? > [@](#): > > Nor do you have the authority to declare your definition as binding via the 14th amendment. Nor do I REQUIRE any “authority” to interpret the 14th Aamendment and form an opinion about it. [quoet]You don’t get to define what counts as “inattentive driving” or the value of a person’s virginity, or the amount of deference which should be given to someone with an unfortunate, severe allergy. You don’t have the authority. None of us do. [/quote] I don’t have the right to express personal opinions? Am I in the right country? I thought I was in America. I’m almost positive I’ve see _other_ people express opinions on this board. Have I been dreaming for the past three years? The thread that led to thos ome was in a forum called IMHO. What does that stand for? Am I supposed to preface every personal opinion I post with “IMO” or “I think…?” Fuck that. > [@](#): > > When did I call you an asshole? I’ve called you self-righteous. Same difference. > [@](#): > > I think demonizing those with a different idea of what constitutes a “decent education” than you and saying the state should step in fits the bill. I don’t know when I’ve “demonized” them. Maybe I’ve called parents who refuse to expose their kids to science “morons” or something, but that’s just stating an obvious truth, and it is a FACT, not an opinion, that evolution is a necessary part of education. Only a complete fucking imbecile would deny that. When do YOU believe the state should step in, by the way? Do you believe a child has any legal right whatsoever to be educated? Do parents have the right to refuse to teach their kids how to read, yes or no? > [@](#): > > Belittling those whose virginity is important to them? That’s not self-righteous, just mocking and disrespectful. > [@](#): > > Declaring your intent to deliberately flaunt a rule designed to safeguard a student’s life because you feel it is not sufficiently justified. Big time self-righteousness there, and the subject of one of your six-page pit threads IIRC. You disagree with the school’s administrators so you’ll deliberately defy them. Sure the kid could die, but what the fuck is that when set against the principle of imposing restrictions on **Diogenes** that he doesn’t agree with? It took me a while to figure out what you were talking about with this. It was that dumbass peanut butter thread, wasn’t it? I said I’d ignore a school rule about letting my kid bring peanut butter to school. Well, I don’t feel like looking it up, but from what I remember, saying that it would endanger another kid’s life is rather a stretch. And wasn’t that like two years ago? You’ve got a memory like an elephant, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/166 "2005-09-21T06:47:01Z")
**Mace** , I’m not saying that a curriculum on evolution needs to be particularly comprehensive or detailed. I just think there has to be some sort of very basic explanation of what it means. When it comes to the Theory of Evolution, an awful lot of people literally do not even know the _definitions_ of the words “theory” and “evolution.” All I expect is that any kid who expects to be granted any sort of accredited diploma or certificate should at least know what the theory is and what it isn’t. I don’t say they have to believe it and I don’t say their arents should not be allowed to teach them creationism. But if they think that evolution is a theory about how the universe was formed then they are showing a deficiency in their education at least equivalent to not being able to name the century of World War 2 or thinking that the Capital of the United States is Idaho. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/167 "2005-09-21T06:47:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Do YOU believe that a basic education can be complete without a knowledge of evolution? Absolutely. For every loudmouth blowhard who has an opinion there are millions that couldn’t care less. The necessity of teaching Evolution/Creationism is overrated. Does knowing how we got here pay the bills? If you’re some lobbyist it does. Otherwise it’s something to go a few rounds over when you have nothing else to do. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/168 "2005-09-21T06:51:34Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Absolutely. For every loudmouth blowhard who has an opinion there are millions that couldn’t care less. The necessity of teaching Evolution/Creationism is overrated. Does knowing how we got here pay the bills? If you’re some lobbyist it does. Otherwise it’s something to go a few rounds over when you have nothing else to do. Do you think that a person deserves a high school diploma if they don’t know anything about biological evolution? A lot of people don’t know or care about US history. Does that mean it shouldn’t be a required part of a high school curriculum? What do you think _should_ be required? Do children have any right to any education at all? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/169 "2005-09-21T07:17:56Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Do you think that a person deserves a high school diploma if they don’t know anything about biological evolution? Yep. It’s much ado about nothing, on both sides. > [@](#): > > A lot of people don’t know or care about US history. Does that mean it shouldn’t be a required part of a high school curriculum? Truthfully? That’s what I think. > [@](#): > > What do you think _should_ be required? Do children have any right to any education at all? None. School should be for basic literacy and skill training. Anything above and beyond that should be on you. I’ve said that for a long time, at least since the question was posed in one of the Political Compass threads. Besides, ask yourself what kids get out of school now. For all the money we throw at schools, for all the resources they consume, can you honestly say that you get your money’s worth? Not hardly. You get a combination social club and babysitter. You can get that for a lot less out in the private sector, and a much better education to boot. I did nearly 11 years of private school, transferring to a public school for the last 2 1/2 years. When I walked into the classroom that first day I was astonished at what they were teaching. They were light years behind what I had learned in private school and I wasn’t even in any advanced classes at my previous institution. It was a joke. If it is at all possible I will be sending my son to a private school. If that means that he learns about Creationism, that’s fine with me. Why? Because it doesn’t matter. I won’t “cheat” my son out of an education, and I will aim to get him the best one, but only because people seem to think that a degree means something other than the ability to stay awake for 12-16 years and that some schools are more valuable than others. If I were allowed to leave it up to him I would. Truth is, I’ve learned more from reading on my own and from living real life than I ever did from school. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/170 "2005-09-21T10:44:29Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > This has been gone over before. The painters’ suspicions were aroused before **Zsofia** ’s were because they were at the house before she was. She hadn’t seen these people at all, prior to the painters observing them. Yeah, and this hasn’t been mentioned yet either, but if anyone’s going to know anything about drug traffic activity it’s going to be a painter. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/171 "2005-09-21T10:48:43Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You’ve got a memory like an elephant, dude. No shit, a short while ago I think he called me on a thread that was from back when I went by my former username. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/172 "2005-09-21T10:53:05Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > What in John Corrado’s post do you find ridiculous?You will have to try much harder to achieve his level of unassailable rightness. Maybe call anyone who disagrees a psychopath.A statement of “fact” that has been debated by intelligent people for over 60 years. I’m glad you two have it all worked out.Do you believe that this meaningless statement scores some rhetorical point? If so, could you explain? Quite obviously, saying that if dtc says the bombing was an evil act then he’s saying all allies fighting the war were evil. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/173 "2005-09-21T12:17:48Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Do you think that a person deserves a high school diploma if they don’t know anything about biological evolution? I got all the way to a B.S. without taking a course that covered evolotion. Only biology I had was in 7th grade, IIRC. Should I give my degree back? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/174 "2005-09-21T12:36:03Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Quite obviously, saying that if dtc says the bombing was an evil act then he’s saying all allies fighting the war were evil. Dude, _read the fucking thread_. Diogenes states boldly that American bombing raids were done specifically to kill civilians. Ergo, the entire American war effort was evil. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/175 "2005-09-21T12:39:41Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > I got all the way to a B.S. without taking a course that covered evolotion. The topical cream that helps you survive like the fittest! As recommended by experts. May cause irreversible head expansion, vestigial leg syndrome and nausea. Evolotion is available by prescription only. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/176 "2005-09-21T12:43:45Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > Dude, _read the fucking thread_. Diogenes states boldly that American bombing raids were done specifically to kill civilians. Ergo, the entire American war effort was evil. I can read thanks. How about you try thinking? I know it’s hard, what with that knee constantly jerking into your face and all, but give it a go. Begin by figuring out when you can and cannot use the term ‘ergo’. Then try using ‘therefore’ so as not to sound like a pretentious twat. Here’s a fucking hint. It has no place in the quote above. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/177 "2005-09-21T13:05:59Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Begin by figuring out when you can and cannot use the term ‘ergo’. Then try using ‘therefore’ so as not to sound like a pretentious twat. Here’s a fucking hint. It has no place in the quote above. What’s the matter with using the word ‘ergo’? It’s a perfectly appropriate and useful word, and was used correctly in the sentence. Did you understand what he meant? Obviously so,since you offered another word that you felt he should have used. In that case, the goal of communication of an idea was met. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/178 "2005-09-21T13:47:42Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > **Mace** , I’m not saying that a curriculum on evolution needs to be particularly comprehensive or detailed. I just think there has to be some sort of very basic explanation of what it means. When it comes to the Theory of Evolution, an awful lot of people literally do not even know the _definitions_ of the words “theory” and “evolution.” All I expect is that any kid who expects to be granted any sort of accredited diploma or certificate should at least know what the theory is and what it isn’t. I don’t say they have to believe it and I don’t say their arents should not be allowed to teach them creationism. But if they think that evolution is a theory about how the universe was formed then they are showing a deficiency in their education at least equivalent to not being able to name the century of World War 2 or thinking that the Capital of the United States is Idaho. I agree 100% with that. Not even a quibble of disagreement. But if you are going to assert (as you seem to have done) that the above is \*\*mandated \*\*by the 14th amendment, then I’m going to adamantlly disagree, and ask you to back up that statement with facts (ie, SCOTUS rulings, not just your own intereptation of what that amendment means). ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/179 "2005-09-21T15:19:42Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t know when I’ve “demonized” them. Maybe I’ve called parents who refuse to expose their kids to science “morons” or something, but that’s just stating an obvious truth, and it is a FACT, not an opinion, that evolution is a necessary part of education. Only a complete fucking imbecile would deny that. I deny it. Can you explain why understanding the theory of evolution is a necessary part of an education? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534/180 "2005-09-21T15:27:33Z")
Because you don’t know anything about biology without it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-fount-of-perfect-knowledge/322534.md?page=10)