# Diogenes the Cynic: US troops engaged in "genocide" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 16, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101 "2005-01-16T23:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/21 "2005-01-17T01:44:10Z")
What’s the point, really? There are lots of reasons to oppose the US occupation without throwing in terms like ‘mass murder’ or ‘genocide’. Do you expect that someone here not currently in opposition to the war is is suddenly going to say, “Oh yeah, **Diogenes** , so well known here for his even temper and lack of hyperbole, sez the US is committting mass murder in Iraq. That changes everything!” Call it what you want, really, but since very few people are likely to agree with your terminology, you’re probably going to want to save a copy of your personal definition of the term to paste into your posts, to help explain why you’re being (IMO) so pointlessly inflammatory. ---
**Author:** ![booka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e0b2c6/32.png) [@booka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/booka)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/22 "2005-01-17T01:45:41Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > No, you’re not, **Diogenes**. That’s throwing gasoline onto a fire, a.k.a. trolling. There’s enough overwrought rhetoric about this war. We certainly don’t need you making discussions even more inflammatory. Consider this a warning, **Diogenes**. Ratchet it back or we will dispense with your presence. > > TVeblen > Pit mod Huh? So, I guess of someone makes the discussion more inflammatory through the use of, say, a logical fallacy (quite common here), or if they inflame the discussion by presenting factual evidence that irritates someone’s sensibilities, that’s cause for getting yelled at too? I guess the new rule here is: **"There’s NOTHING funny about misspelling!".** Lighten up. \*\*Dio \*\* can be irritating, but this threat is over the top. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/23 "2005-01-17T01:46:00Z")
I think you can say its genocide. There’s nothing in **Finnagain’s** definition that you can’t believe. Is he stating that you’re not allowed to believe that genocide is the goal until it _actually_ occurs? I totally disagree with you and still think you’re somewhat of a dickhead, but I can’t help but state that your words while overboard in nature cannot be allowed and I’m surprised that you can be accused of trolling for not backing off. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/24 "2005-01-17T01:48:47Z")
state **that I’m amazed that** your words ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/25 "2005-01-17T01:54:24Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > I think you can say its genocide. > > There’s nothing in **Finnagain’s** definition that you can’t believe. You believe that this war is a systematic extermination of who, exactly? Authorized by whom? > [@BubbaDog](#): > > Is he stating that you’re not allowed to believe that genocide is the goal until it _actually_ occurs? > [@Dio](#): > > I’m saying that the US military is engaged in a campign of genocide. This implies that, oh, I dunno… There is a military campaign underway. The campaign is one of genocide. It is being conducted by the US military. This is heavy shit that requires proof. If it’s hyperbole, it’s needlessly inflamatory. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/26 "2005-01-17T01:57:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Can I still say I think it’s mass murder? Nice to see you’re working with us here, **Diogenes**. Your spirit of cooperation has been duly noted. Since you seem to require very simple explanations, I’ll give you one. No, we will NOT supply you or anyone else with a tidy list of verboten words and phrases. We aren’t gonna babysit adults. See, the point is to evaluate–sorry, _weigh_–even rants for something approximating–oops! did it again–_close to_–a reasonable, responsible point of view. Unless, of course, you think the one who shouts the loudest, most shocking thing wins somehow. What on earth you think it could possibly win escapes me. Certainly not credibility, much less respect. Simple enough for you yet? Grown-ups…have control over themselves! Exciting idea, isn’t it? People who don’t control themselves…get into trouble! Boo! Hiss! You’ve been around long enough to know better. TVeblen Pit mod ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/27 "2005-01-17T02:06:21Z")
> [@essvee](#): > > I gotta admit I can see Dio’s point. Honestly, how can you say the wholesale slaughter of civilians isn’t mass murder? It’s no less of a stretch than calling it “protecting our country.” To my mind, it’s much less of a stretch than calling it “protecting our country.” > > Please. I think that it is indeed less of a stretch than calling it “protecting our country”. I still do not see Dio’s point: two lies don’t make a truth. I don’t recall if I’ve argues this on the SDMB before, but despite the fact I am proactive in my foreign policy stance, I would heartily argue against calling this defending our country, or our freedom, or even call it “defense” at all. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/28 "2005-01-17T02:07:27Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You believe that this war is a systematic extermination of who, exactly? Authorized by whom? Oh, for fuck’s sake **FinnAgain** , I was saying that if **Dio** believes that the goal of the military is genocide, your definition supports his statement. Didja read the part where I said I disagreed with him? > [@](#): > > This implies that, oh, I dunno… > There is a military campaign underway. > The campaign is one of genocide. > It is being conducted by the US military. > > This is heavy shit that requires proof. So, Dickhead’s like **DIO** aren’t allowed to express an opinion? They have to have iffefutable proof? > [@](#): > > If it’s hyperbole, it’s needlessly inflamatory. **IMHO** (bolding added). That “O” on the end of IMHO seems to be screaming something at us. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/29 "2005-01-17T02:25:31Z")
> [@booka](#): > > Huh? > > So, I guess of someone makes the discussion more inflammatory through the use of, say, a logical fallacy (quite common here), or if they inflame the discussion by presenting factual evidence that irritates someone’s sensibilities, that’s cause for getting yelled at too? > > I guess the new rule here is: > > **"There’s NOTHING funny about misspelling!".** > > Lighten up. \*\*Dio \*\* can be irritating, but this threat is over the top. I don’t think **DtC** got a warning for saying that US troops were engaged in genocide, but rather for saying that he was going to continue to use the phrase just to piss off **FinnAgain**. _That_ is trolling. If someone got a warning every time they said something crazy and inflammatory, half the board would have been banned ages ago. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/30 "2005-01-17T02:29:07Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I think that it is indeed less of a stretch than calling it “protecting our country”. I still do not see Dio’s point: two lies don’t make a truth. I’m not lying. Killing a 100,000 innocent people for no reason is mass murder by any definition. > [@](#): > > I don’t recall if I’ve argues this on the SDMB before, but despite the fact I am proactive in my foreign policy stance, I would heartily argue against calling this defending our country, or our freedom, or even call it “defense” at all. What are we defending ouselves from? What a steaming load of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/31 "2005-01-17T02:35:06Z")
**Diogenes** , I’ve noted in the last few months that your posts are gradually becoming more mean-spirited. Instead of frankly and openly stating your views with a sense of reasonableness, you’ve become more vicious, more of a name caller, and more, well, mean-spirited. You’re turning from someone I respect to someone I’m ashamed of. I’d like it if you returned to the way you used to be. For what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/32 "2005-01-17T02:41:22Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > Oh, for fuck’s sake **FinnAgain** , I was saying that if **Dio** believes that the goal of the military is genocide, your definition supports his statement. Didja read the part where I said I disagreed with him? Pardon me if I misread your post, I was a bit confused by your pronouns at the beginning. But what in my definition of genocide has anything in common with what’s going on in Iraq? > [@BubbaDog](#): > > So, Dickhead’s like **DIO** aren’t allowed to express an opinion? They have to have iffefutable proof? In _my_ opinion users on the SDMB should refrain from making inflamatory remarks without justification, yes. And I freakin’ hate it when people rely on something being an ‘opinion’. I don’t know why people say that, or what they think it means exactly. Your opinion on whether coke is better than pepsi is irrelevent. Your opinion that US troops are commiting genocide is either a grave charge to be backed up with facts, or unfounded idiocy. > [@BubbaDog](#): > > That “O” on the end of IMHO seems to be screaming something at us. Um, yes, that I’m not trying to speak as a mod or engage in junior-modding . ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/33 "2005-01-17T02:44:38Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > Nice to see you’re working with us here, **Diogenes**. Your spirit of cooperation has been duly noted. > > Since you seem to require very simple explanations, I’ll give you one. No, we will NOT supply you or anyone else with a tidy list of verboten words and phrases. We aren’t gonna babysit adults. See, the point is to evaluate–sorry, _weigh_–even rants for something approximating–oops! did it again–_close to_–a reasonable, responsible point of view. > > Unless, of course, you think the one who shouts the loudest, most shocking thing wins somehow. What on earth you think it could possibly win escapes me. Certainly not credibility, much less respect. > > Simple enough for you yet? Grown-ups…have control over themselves! Exciting idea, isn’t it? People who don’t control themselves…get into trouble! Boo! Hiss! > > You’ve been around long enough to know better. > > TVeblen > Pit mod Forgive me for belaboring this, but my belief that the war in Iraq amounts to mass murder is a fervent and sincere one. I am not trying to be shocking or irresponsible. It’s what I really think. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/34 "2005-01-17T02:48:30Z")
Calling the US actions on Iraq a genocide is a disservice to the memory of the many genocide victims in the past and the present. I´m as opposed to the war as you, but I prefer to lay my terms on rational bases, which unfortunately are wide enough to support the stance. To be honest your rant sounded a bit histerical, I can comprehend that, you feel like pulling your hairs off when you see your country taking the road to hell with a smug, smilling face; but try to keep your fight to set things right civil. In a fight the winner is not nesesarily the stronger opponent, but the one who keeps a cool and centered mind. ---
**Author:** ![Floyd13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@Floyd13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floyd13)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/35 "2005-01-17T02:48:38Z")
In some ways I agree with \*\*Dio \*\* here. First off, Bush is clearly a mass murderer. And in terms of genocide, not so sure, but I don’t doubt that he just assume destroy every muslim on the planet in the name of his delusional god. And another thing, you guys somehow assume that genocide is worse than mass murder. How so? Killing thousands of random people is somehow better than one particular group? Mass murder or genocide, either way he’s a complete piece of shit that should be in jail or dead. Note, I’m not wishing death of him, just saying that based on our laws, life in prison or the death penalty are both justified punishments. ---
**Author:** ![MrFantsyPants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MrFantsyPants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFantsyPants)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/36 "2005-01-17T02:49:59Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’m not lying. Killing a 100,000 innocent people for no reason is mass murder by any definition. No, it is not. Murder (in my mind, not the legal definition, perhaps) requires intent to kill. I don’t believe that the US went into Iraq with the intent to kill thousand upon thousands of innocent people. Those people are dead because of incompetence, poor training and preparation, and a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. I would support calling it mass-man-slaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/37 "2005-01-17T02:54:32Z")
> [@MrFantsyPants](#): > > No, it is not. Murder (in my mind, not the legal definition, perhaps) requires intent to kill. I don’t believe that the US went into Iraq with the intent to kill thousand upon thousands of innocent people. Those people are dead because of incompetence, poor training and preparation, and a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. I would support calling it mass-man-slaughter. They went in there a.) without legal cause and b.) with the knowledge that their actions would have a high probability in causing a large number of civilian deaths. Call it “Felony-Mass Murder.” ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/38 "2005-01-17T02:56:10Z")
> [@MrFantsyPants](#): > > No, it is not. Murder (in my mind, not the legal definition, perhaps) requires intent to kill. I don’t believe that the US went into Iraq with the intent to kill thousand upon thousands of innocent people. Those people are dead because of incompetence, poor training and preparation, and a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. I would support calling it mass-man-slaughter. I don’t know. I mean, I’m sure we didn’t go in with the _intent_ of killing thousands of innocent people, but I’m pretty sure they went in with the knowledge that it would be a result of the invasion - _I_ sure as hell knew it would be, and I’m no military strategist (I did serve in the military, FTR). Maybe this is splitting hairs, but let’s not be disingenuous about what the U.S. could reasonably expect to be the consequence of this war. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/39 "2005-01-17T02:59:16Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > I think you can say its genocide. > > There’s nothing in **Finnagain’s** definition that you can’t believe. Is he stating that you’re not allowed to believe that genocide is the goal until it _actually_ occurs? This is sort of what I was thinking when I read this thread. The question arises - seriously - how much of a civilian population has to be indiscriminately bombed, maimed and slaughtered before the word ‘genocide’ is applicable? Or does the word genocide only apply **after** the whole population is wiped out? I don’t think it is an end result only - with no beginning or stages in between - perhaps DtC should have used the term ‘partial genocide’ - would that have been more acceptable to the OP writer? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/40 "2005-01-17T03:05:02Z")
> [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](#): > > I don’t think it is an end result only - with no beginning or stages in between - perhaps DtC should have used the term ‘partial genocide’ - would that have been more acceptable to the OP writer? Nope, it would not. Notice from the definition I posted “ **The systematic and planned** extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101.md?page=3)