# Diogenes the Cynic: US troops engaged in "genocide" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 16, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101 "2005-01-16T23:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/81 "2005-01-17T06:09:31Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Nope, According to YOU American soldiers are guilty of war crimes. I disagree with you on that. I think they’re just victims sent into danger under false pretenses. No according to YOU they are guilty of war crimes. You are accussing them of participating in mass-murder which is a clear violation of any number of international treaties. ‘Just following orders’ is no legal defense no matter how much they were ‘lied’ to. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > (2) is not _universally_ false but in general I’ve already explained it. The troops were sent there under false pretenses. They were lied to. They are at the mercy of their own criminal leaders. I personally don’t hold them morally responsible. Apparantly you do. Lets put aside the moral debate for a second here. Here is my logic let me know where you think it breaks down. (1) Mass-murder is being commited in Iraq (2) Mass murder is against a myriad of international laws (3) American soldiers know that an order to committ mass murder is an unlawful order (4) American soldiers have an obligation to not follow unlawful orders (5) American soldiers are perpetuating this Mass murder (6) American soldiers are guilty of war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/82 "2005-01-17T06:11:19Z")
You keep saying that. You really seem to have it in for these soldiers. I suggest you write your congressman. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/83 "2005-01-17T06:15:19Z")
I suggest you stop making outrageous claims about soldiers commiting war crimes to grind a partisan axe. I also suggest when called on your illogical bullshit not to accuse the Doper of having it in for soldiers. My questions still stand. Are you going to defend your accusations or shall we go ahead and write you off as a dishonest shrill? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/84 "2005-01-17T06:21:05Z")
I HAVE defended my accusations. I have NOT accused the average US soldier of warcrimes so there’s nothing for me to defend on that front. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/85 "2005-01-17T06:27:00Z")
You have accused the basic grunt of a war crime. President Bush isn’t over there mass murdering Iraqis himself. American grunts are doing so and by doing so are committing a war crime. What point do you deny? (1) Mass-murder is being commited in Iraq (2) Mass murder is against a myriad of international laws (3) American soldiers know that an order to committ mass murder is an unlawful order (4) American soldiers have an obligation to not follow unlawful orders (5) American soldiers are perpetuating this Mass murder (6) American soldiers know they are perpetuating mass murder (7) Therefore American soldiers are knowingly violating international law i.e. commiting a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/86 "2005-01-17T06:32:30Z")
You’re spinning your wheels on this. I am never going to say that the troops are morally responsible. They didn’t know that they were being lied to when they were told to enter the the country. They didn’t know that the orders were illegal. They are guilty of nothing. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/87 "2005-01-17T06:39:28Z")
I am not talking moral responsibility at this point. I am talking legal responsibility. Unless you are grossly misusing the term mass murder (DING DING DING) I cannot see how it is possible that soldiers did not know they were commiting it. How exactly did american soldiers commit mass murder without knowing it? And if they didn’t know they were committing it how is it murder? I ask you one more time which point do you find fault with in my logic? (1) Mass-murder is being commited in Iraq (2) Mass murder is against a myriad of international laws (3) American soldiers know that an order to committ mass murder is an unlawful order (4) American soldiers have an obligation to not follow unlawful orders (5) American soldiers are perpetuating this Mass murder (6) American soldiers know they are perpetuating mass murder (7) Therefore American soldiers are knowingly violating international law i.e. commiting a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/88 "2005-01-17T06:46:23Z")
**They didn’t know the orders were unlawful**. They didn’t know that the justification for the war was a lie. They thought they were defending the US against a threat. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/89 "2005-01-17T06:49:55Z")
Yeah well, now all the info on the war is out. Is it still an instance of mass murder? The troops know now, are they still guilty of war crimes? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/90 "2005-01-17T06:51:47Z")
How could they not know? If I am order to go out and mass murder a bunch of Iraqi civilians how could I possibly not realize it? Wouldn’t the numerous innocent Iraqi’s that I just killed clue me in? If you are claiming that the war was illegal then claim that. Claiming mass-murder is an extremely serious charge that you should be backing up with a plethora of evidence. If indeed mass-murder has taken place in Iraq everyone from the President down to the ditch digging grunt is legally responsible. This is not my opinion this is a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/91 "2005-01-17T06:53:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yeah well, now all the info on the war is out. Is it still an instance of mass murder? The troops know now, are they still guilty of war crimes? Legally, I don’t know. Morally, I don’t think so. Once there in the country they have to defend themselves. It’s not their fault they’re in there because of a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/92 "2005-01-17T06:59:47Z")
> [@treis](#): > > How could they not know? If I am order to go out and mass murder a bunch of Iraqi civilians how could I possibly not realize it? Wouldn’t the numerous innocent Iraqi’s that I just killed clue me in? Listen carefully, dumbfuck. The crime was ordering them to invade and occupy the country. They were told they had to do it to defend the US. They were told that collateral damage to civilians was a necessarily price to defend the US. The troops went in on good faith in the belief that they were following lawful orders. > [@](#): > > indeed mass-murder has taken place in Iraq everyone from the President down to the ditch digging grunt is legally responsible. This is not my opinion this is a fact. Only those who knew that the invasion was based on a lie are responsible. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/93 "2005-01-17T07:03:25Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Listen carefully, dumbfuck. The crime was ordering them to invade and occupy the country. They were told they had to do it to defend the US. They were told that collateral damage to civilians was a necessarily price to defend the US. The troops went in on good faith in the belief that they were following lawful orders. Collateral damage doesn’t meet the definition of murder dumbfuck. Nor does illegally invading a country constitute mass murder. If you choose to scream mass murder in the future would you kindly put an \* and then add your definition of mass murder at the bottom of your post. It will be very helpful to people that don’t have access to Diogenes’s Dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/94 "2005-01-17T07:06:22Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Collateral damage doesn’t meet the definition of murder dumbfuck. Nor does illegally invading a country constitute mass murder. It does when it occurs as the result of an illegal order. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/95 "2005-01-17T07:15:02Z")
Uhm no: > [@](#): > > Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with the intention to kill or cause grievous bodily harm. The legal definition used to describe the act of murder is violence ‘with malice aforethought’. [link](http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/law/jargonbuster_m.shtml) Murder requires forethought numbnuts. Since all evidence points to the military actively trying to not kill civilians its going to be pretty tough for you to show forethought. Unless of course murder means something in Diogenes world. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/96 "2005-01-17T07:16:06Z")
Unless of course murder means something \*\* else \*\* in Diogenes world. Preview damnit. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/97 "2005-01-17T07:17:13Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Murder requires forethought numbnuts. Since all evidence points to the military actively trying to not kill civilians its going to be pretty tough for you to show forethought. He’s saying the forethought is on the part of the people who planned the war. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/98 "2005-01-17T07:18:18Z")
Not to kill civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/99 "2005-01-17T07:20:44Z")
When you plan a war you know there will be civilian casualties even if you want to avoid them, so in a sense that’s a pretty old debate. I don’t know. I already weighed in on this anyway. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/100 "2005-01-17T07:22:55Z")
So that would fall under the definition of manslaughter: > [@](#): > > Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of another human being without the intention to kill or cause grievous bodily harm. The legal definition used to describe this accidental act of murder is violence ‘without malice aforethought’. (See Murder.) see my previous link. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101.md?page=6)