# Diogenes the Cynic: US troops engaged in "genocide" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 16, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101 "2005-01-16T23:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/101 "2005-01-17T07:35:00Z")
But that doesn’t seem quite adequate in describing a situation where you _know_ people will be killed and still go ahead with it. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/102 "2005-01-17T07:49:19Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’m saying that the civilian leadership made a **decision to use the military in a manner which they knew would result in a large number of civilian deaths.** DIO You got that part wrong. Had the executive wished for high civillian casualties , they simply would have directed that B-52’s , B-1’s , and the rest of the tactical airforce engage in a bombing campaign that would rival Dresden , Tokyo and Hanoi in scope. Next from Finn > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Are you saying that the US soldiers in Iraq are conducting a planned and organized attack upon innocent Iraqi civlians? [Serious Charge] And your reply [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Not the US soldiers, but the ones who sent them there. /QUOTE] For that to happen , then the executive gives the order to the chairman of the joint chiefs who passes it down the line , so eventually Private snuffy will get an order to blow shit up and kill people. Once he recieves an order and complies with it ,then he becomes what you are trying to exonerate him of. I think you need to switch this over to GQ for the military types to give you an ansewer on what happens if a soldier refuses a direct order , believing it to be ilegal, the process it involves. If you want to criticize the Executive ,then fine , but with the troops I do think you went too far. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/103 "2005-01-17T14:39:35Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > DIO > > You got that part wrong. Had the executive wished for high civillian casualties , they simply would have directed that B-52’s , B-1’s , and the rest of the tactical airforce engage in a bombing campaign that would rival Dresden , Tokyo and Hanoi in scope. I didn’t say he WISHED for high civilian casualties, I said he knew that they would be a result of an invasion. > [@](#): > > For that to happen , then the executive gives the order to the chairman of the joint chiefs who passes it down the line , so eventually Private snuffy will get an order to blow shit up and kill people. Once he recieves an order and complies with it ,then he becomes what you are trying to exonerate him of. Private Snuffy didn’t know the order was illegal. It was illegal not because the act itself was ilegal but because the justification was false. Only the civilians knew the justification was false. > [@](#): > > I think you need to switch this over to GQ for the military types to give you an ansewer on what happens if a soldier refuses a direct order , believing it to be ilegal, the process it involves. I was IN the military. The soldiers in Iraq had no reason to believe that the invasion was illegal until they were well into the occuipation. [quoteIf you want to criticize the Executive ,then fine , but with the troops I do think you went too far.[/quote] I _didn’t_ criticize the troops. Fucking learn how to read. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/104 "2005-01-17T16:59:07Z")
Well, good to see that cognitive dissonance is not exclusive to the right. “We’re commiting war crimes in Iraq, but I support the troops!” I don’t think I’ve ever seen such naked, hypocritical equivocating outside of the White House press room. What’s that old saying about becoming that which you fight against? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/105 "2005-01-17T17:56:14Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I didn’t say he WISHED for high civilian casualties, I said he knew that they would be a result of an invasion. So FDR and HST are responsible for mass murder? Why weren’t they tried for war crimes? What about Clinton? Surely he knew that Kosovo and Somalia would result in high civilian casualties. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/106 "2005-01-17T18:00:31Z")
Anyone remember this article?\* [**Rumsfeld approved 50 strikes, each expected to kill 30 civilians**](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/iraq/2002750) > [@](#): > > Air war commanders were required to obtain Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld’s approval if any strike was likely to result in the deaths of more than 30 civilians. There were more than 50 such strikes, and all were approved. Pretty much what **Dio** has been saying in this thread all along, huh? \*Link to secondary source – original NYT article filed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/107 "2005-01-17T18:10:26Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > So FDR and HST are responsible for mass murder? Not Roosevelt. WW II was legal it was defensive and and the cost in civilian lives was justified. I make an exception for Truman. Dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagaski was one of the most grotesque atrocities ever committed. > [@](#): > > Why weren’t they tried for war crimes? Because they were the winners. Only losers get tried for war crimes. > [@](#): > > What about Clinton? Surely he knew that Kosovo and Somalia would result in high civilian casualties. Bush SR. sent troops into Somalia, dumbfuck, not Clinton. And neither Kosovo nor Somalia were aggressive attacks on other countries. They were humanitarian misions which were requested by the countries in question. And neither action resulted in high civian casulaties. In Kosovo, US troops were sent after the was was _over_ to help keep the peace. In Somalia we were trying to get supplies to civilians, not fight anybody. In neither case was there any calculation to attack anything. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/108 "2005-01-17T18:55:51Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Not Roosevelt. WW II was legal it was defensive and and the cost in civilian lives was justified. Ah, so you’re just changing your requirements as we go along. Gotcha. > [@](#): > > Bush SR. sent troops into Somalia, dumbfuck, not Clinton. My bad. Wikipedia said 2003, should have looked further. And double dumbfuck on you. > [@](#): > > And neither Kosovo nor Somalia were aggressive attacks on other countries. They were humanitarian misions which were requested by the countries in question. And neither action resulted in high civian casulaties. So 1000 Somalians killed in a day or two isn’t high civilian casualties? > [@](#): > > In Kosovo, US troops were sent after the was was _over_ to help keep the peace. In Somalia we were trying to get supplies to civilians, not fight anybody. In neither case was there any calculation to attack anything. I’m sure all the people in the Chinese embassy will be happy to know that they aren’t considered civilian casualties by Dio. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/109 "2005-01-17T19:11:17Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Pretty much what **Dio** has been saying in this thread all along, huh? No. Civilians accidently killed during the course of a war aren’t victims of murder, and those who killed them (or ordered the actions leading to their deaths) aren’t murderers. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/110 "2005-01-17T19:42:42Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > No. > > Civilians accidently killed during the course of a war aren’t victims of murder, and those who killed them (or ordered the actions leading to their deaths) aren’t murderers. Who gets to determine what “accidental” is in an illegal war such as this one? I’ve just posted a cite **proving** that Rumsfeld gave the green light to missions where it was a _known fact_ civilians would die. How’s that an “accident”? Better yet, go explain it to the surviving relatives. “Ooopsy Daisy! So sorry! See, you weren’t _really_ supposed to die.” ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/111 "2005-01-17T19:48:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, good to see that cognitive dissonance is not exclusive to the right. > > “We’re commiting war crimes in Iraq, but I support the troops!” > > I don’t think I’ve ever seen such naked, hypocritical equivocating outside of the White House press room. What’s that old saying about becoming that which you fight against? I don’t think that’s necessarily a contradiction at all. His position is that the troops are being used by their superiors, given orders which seem plausible and legal, in order to commit a crime. There is nothing inherently flawed in that position. If Admiral Evil wants to destroy an orphanage, and tells a pilot “the building at location xxx:yyy is an arms factory, please bomb it”, and the pilot destroys the specified building, which was an orphanage, Admiral Evil is guilty of a war crime and the pilot is not. Anyhow, as to the topic of the thread as a whole, I find it to be a bit frustrating and pointless, in that it takes a complex and important discussion of national ethics and behavior (is the Iraq invasion justified, has the US taken adequate precautions against unnecessary civilian deaths, was the Bush administration deliberately misleading the American public about the justifications for war, etc.) and reduces it to a single argument (is the US military committing mass murder). It’s like a legal case where you take someone who definitely acted very very very badly, whose acts resulted in many deaths, and you decide to charge them with first degree murder instead of 500 counts of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter or something, and then if they’re found innocent of 1st degree murder, they’ll walk away, because you overreached in what you charged them with. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/112 "2005-01-17T19:50:20Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > So FDR and HST are responsible for mass murder? Why weren’t they tried for war crimes? Their side won. Mind you, I do think they were better than the other side. But a good end does not justify any action. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/113 "2005-01-17T19:51:40Z")
I’d like to see someone explain their thoughts on **Redfury’s** Rummy cite. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/114 "2005-01-17T20:08:29Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I’d like to see someone explain their thoughts on **Redfury’s** Rummy cite. It’s tough to say with the limited information involved. Were some of those targets military instillations/weapons in the middle of a civilian neighborhood? Were the missions likely to save US troops from death? Were they resturaunts that served Rummy bad food? It’s really tough to put it into context. I’d like to think that with the information available at the time they thought they were doing these attacks for the greater good and that the estimates erred on the high side. I’m not going to start blindly accusing people for a little snippit like that. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/115 "2005-01-17T20:10:13Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I’d like to see someone explain their thoughts on **Redfury’s** Rummy cite. The goal of the missions (I am assuming) wasn’t to kill civilians therefore it isn’t murder. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/116 "2005-01-17T20:47:36Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Who gets to determine what “accidental” is in an illegal war such as this one? I’ve just posted a cite **proving** that Rumsfeld gave the green light to missions where it was a _known fact_ civilians would die. Unless the goal of the mission was to kill civilians, then their deaths were essentially unintentional. They didn’t mean to kill the specific civilians they killed, but they happened to be standing next to the target when it was attacked. Wars kill innocent people; it’s tragic and sad but not murder. > [@RedFury](#): > > How’s that an “accident”? Better yet, go explain it to the surviving relatives. > > “Ooopsy Daisy! So sorry! See, you weren’t _really_ supposed to die.” I’m sorry, but appealing to emotion and stroking your sense of righteousness doesn’t make you correct. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/117 "2005-01-17T21:30:40Z")
Wars have to be justified. The invasion of Iraq was not. Since the civilian scum who who sent the military into Iraq a.) knew that the invasion was not justifiable as self-defense (and no other excuse is justified under the UN Charter) and b.) knew that the invasion would necessarily result in the loss of civilian life, then the act is morally equivalent to murder. mass murder. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/118 "2005-01-17T21:31:12Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Unless the goal of the mission was to kill civilians, then their deaths were essentially unintentional. They didn’t mean to kill the specific civilians they killed, but they happened to be standing next to the target when it was attacked. Bullshit logic. Of course _they meant to kill_ them no matter how much you tap dance around the fact. See, _they knew they were there_ and decided to strike anyway – thus making them one with their target. Again, “oopsy daisy” doesn’t cut it. Try a little empathy – if you have any that is – and see how that works. In essense, it simply boils down to the US playing God in Iraq and you being OK with that. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, but appealing to emotion and stroking your sense of righteousness doesn’t make you correct. And nothing you can do or say will make the Iraq invasion anything other than what it is: an illegal and inmoral affair where war crimes are being commited in your name. Turd remains a turd no matter how much you polish it. Enjoy. No doubt you already are. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/119 "2005-01-17T21:32:43Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > It’s tough to say with the limited information involved. Were some of those targets military instillations/weapons in the middle of a civilian neighborhood? Were the missions likely to save US troops from death? Were they resturaunts that served Rummy bad food? It’s really tough to put it into context. I’d like to think that with the information available at the time they thought they were doing these attacks for the greater good and that the estimates erred on the high side. I’m not going to start blindly accusing people for a little snippit like that. It matters not. We had no right to ever enter the country. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/120 "2005-01-17T21:34:46Z")
If Timothy McVeigh didn’t intend to kill those kids in the daycare center does that mean he didn’t murder them? (Yes, I am comparing GWB to Tim McVeigh). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101.md?page=7)