# Diogenes the Cynic: US troops engaged in "genocide" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 16, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101 "2005-01-16T23:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/121 "2005-01-17T21:38:57Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Bullshit logic. Of course _they meant to kill_ them no matter how much you tap dance around the fact. See, _they knew they were there_ and decided to strike anyway – thus making them one with their target. Speaking of bullshit logic… Look murder requires intent and foresight to kill. Do you contend that this administration has killing civilians as its goal? Do you also contend that this administration planned to kill civilians? > [@RedFury](#): > > In essense, it simply boils down to the US playing God in Iraq and you being OK with that. Who says we are O.K. with that? We are just arguing that they aren’t war crimes nor is it murder. > [@RedFury](#): > > And nothing you can do or say will make the Iraq invasion anything other than what it is: an illegal and inmoral affair where war crimes are being commited in your name. Turd remains a turd no matter how much you polish it. If you think war crimes are occuring that is fine. What you can not do is contend that war crimes are being commited and then also claim that the soldiers are innocent of these war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/122 "2005-01-17T21:39:54Z")
> [@essvee](#): > > I gotta admit I can see Dio’s point. Honestly, how can you say the wholesale slaughter of civilians isn’t mass murder? They’re not civilians once they pick up a gun and start shooting. Or strap a bomb around their belly and kill other civilians of their **own** society. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/123 "2005-01-17T21:44:57Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > They’re not civilians once they pick up a gun and start shooting. Or strap a bomb around their belly and kill other civilians of their **own** society. Would you care to attempt to demonstrate that every civilian killed by U.S. troops in Iraq has been shooting or bombing? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/124 "2005-01-17T21:48:29Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > They’re not civilians once they pick up a gun and start shooting. Or strap a bomb around their belly and kill other civilians of their **own** society. The vast majority of civilians are not doing this but even if they were, _we are in their country illegally_. If someone breaks into your home and kills your children you are entitled to to fight back by any means possible. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/125 "2005-01-17T21:50:44Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If you think war crimes are occuring that is fine. What you can not do is contend that war crimes are being commited and then also claim that the soldiers are innocent of these war crimes. In order for the soldiers to be culpable they would have had to know that the justification for the invasion was a lie. They didn’t know that. Therefore they are innocent. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/126 "2005-01-17T21:55:11Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Look murder requires intent and foresight to kill. Do you contend that this administration has killing civilians as its goal? Do you also contend that this administration planned to kill civilians? There are anywhere from a low of [15,365](http://www.iraqbodycount.net/) to a high of [100,000](http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6596) or more, dead civilians in Iraq. If it makes you feel nice and cozy inside to think that each and everyone of those deaths were “accidents” don’t let me stop you. But don’t ask me to share in your fantasies that the US is not directly responsible for the majority of them. One needn’t be Nostradamus to have warned about those numbers prior to your\* illegal and inmoral invasion\* – and one did. You drop bombs, people die in large numbers. You want to wave them away…hell, the US doesn’t even bother to do “body counts.” Well, I, and many more like me, are here to remind you of what’s being done in your name. **15 to 100 thousand innocent men, women and children, killed**. In your name. For a pack of LIES. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/127 "2005-01-17T22:17:44Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > There are anywhere from a low of [15,365](http://www.iraqbodycount.net/) to a high of [100,000](http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6596) or more, dead civilians in Iraq. If it makes you feel nice and cozy inside to think that each and everyone of those deaths were “accidents” don’t let me stop you. But don’t ask me to share in your fantasies that the US is not directly responsible for the majority of them. The US is directly responsible but that does not mean the US is murdering them. > [@RedFury](#): > > One needn’t be Nostradamus to have warned about those numbers prior to your\* illegal and inmoral invasion\* – and one did. You drop bombs, people die in large numbers. You want to wave them away…hell, the US doesn’t even bother to do “body counts.” Well, I, and many more like me, are here to remind you of what’s being done in your name. > > **15 to 100 thousand innocent men, women and children, killed**. In your name. For a pack of LIES. Foreseeable deaths do not fall under the classification of murder rather they fall under manslaughter. Unless you contend that this administration intended to kill civilians. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > In order for the soldiers to be culpable they would have had to know that the justification for the invasion was a lie. They didn’t know that. Therefore they are innocent. First off ignorance isn’t a defense. Second off are you saying that if this war was justified the US would not be guilty of mass murder? > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If Timothy McVeigh didn’t intend to kill those kids in the daycare center does that mean he didn’t murder them? Swing and a miss! Timothy McVeigh intended to kill as many people as possible while the U.S. has no intent to kill civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Nietzsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8dc957/32.png) [@Nietzsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nietzsche)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/128 "2005-01-17T22:28:41Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Unless the goal of the mission was to kill civilians, then their deaths were essentially unintentional. They didn’t mean to kill the specific civilians they killed, but they happened to be standing next to the target when it was attacked. Wars kill innocent people; it’s tragic and sad but not murder. There seems to be some belief that “intent” is what defines murder. This is absolutely wrong. If you get in your car, wait for someone to come out of their house and cross the street to run them over, that’s considered premeditated murder. If you’re driving like a damned fool and kill a pedestrian in a crosswalk whom you didn’t even know existed until that moment, it’s still considered murder (or at least vehicular homicide which is just a more specific term for murder). The war is illegal, the subsequent occupation is illegal, and by extension, the civilian deaths (whether accidental or intentional) are illegal. They are undoubtedly murder. One’s intent only describes which _type_ of murder they have committed. Are the U.S. soldiers unwittingly involved in war crimes? Yes. But if one of your friends has broken a law and you are truly unaware and give him a ride, you have a valid defense against the charge of accessory. The soldiers did not know that this action was illegal when it was launched. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, but appealing to emotion and stroking your sense of righteousness doesn’t make you correct. With all due respect, your dancing around semantics doesn’t make him incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/129 "2005-01-17T22:49:48Z")
> [@Nietzsche](#): > > There seems to be some belief that “intent” is what defines murder. This is absolutely wrong. If you get in your car, wait for someone to come out of their house and cross the street to run them over, that’s considered premeditated murder. If you’re driving like a damned fool and kill a pedestrian in a crosswalk whom you didn’t even know existed until that moment, it’s still considered murder (or at least vehicular homicide which is just a more specific term for murder). > [@](#): > > Vehicular homicide is the unlawful killing of another with the use of a vehicle. \*\* Unlike murder, vehicular homicide does not require intent to kill. \*\* Georgia?s vehicular homicide statute provides for a wide range of punishment, depending on the circumstances in which the offense is committed. [link](http://www.theduilawyer.com/vehicular/) > [@Nietzsche](#): > > With all due respect, your dancing around semantics doesn’t make him incorrect. This ain’t semantics. Murder means that you intend to kill someone while manslaughter means you didn’t. Thats a pretty big difference in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/130 "2005-01-17T22:51:49Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > And nothing you can do or say will make the Iraq invasion anything other than what it is: an illegal and inmoral affair where war crimes are being commited in your name. Turd remains a turd no matter how much you polish it. I’m not trying to polish a turd. I think the Iraqi war was a bad foreign policy choice, immoral, and a tremendous waste of resources. However, I don’t think you can meaningfully call it “illegal” when there’s no entity capable of actually enforcing any laws that war itself may have broken. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/131 "2005-01-17T23:08:22Z")
Why doesn’t this fucking guy get banned? ---
**Author:** ![Nietzsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8dc957/32.png) [@Nietzsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nietzsche)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/132 "2005-01-17T23:10:23Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Foreseeable deaths do not fall under the classification of murder rather they fall under manslaughter. A legalese semantic difference which actually means the same thing; an unlawful killing of another human being. > [@](#): > > Unless you contend that this administration intended to kill civilians. The fact that has come to light that they knew their case was weak and that WMDs were “what everyone could agree on” makes it quite conceivable that they did indeed intend to kill civilians (although perhaps not as their primary focus). > [@](#): > > First off ignorance isn’t a defense. It most certainly can be. An unwitting participant in a crime may have an out if it can be proven that were truly unaware they were involved in a crime. > [@](#): > > Second off are you saying that if this war was justified the US would not be guilty of mass murder? If this war had been _legal_ and there were no incidents like Dresden or Hanoi or Cambodia, then it would certainly be much harder to make the case. “Justified?” According to many Americans (and even some outside the U.S.) it is justified. That doesn’t make it legal. > [@](#): > > Swing and a miss! Timothy McVeigh intended to kill as many people as possible… Cite? If he intended to kill as many people as possible, he would have blown up Wrigley Field when it’s full, not some federal building. > [@](#): > > This ain’t semantics. Murder means that you intend to kill someone while manslaughter means you didn’t. Thats a pretty big difference in my book. Then look up second degree murder. **Metacom** : > [@](#): > > However, I don’t think you can meaningfully call it “illegal” when there’s no entity capable of actually enforcing any laws that war itself may have broken. Oh, that’s brilliant. There’s no doubt that laws and treaties your nation is a signatory to have been violated, but since no one’s big enough to give you the punishment you so richly deserve, then “it can’t be called illegal.” Wrong. It is indeed illegal, whether you get punished or not. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/133 "2005-01-17T23:30:26Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Why doesn’t this fucking guy get banned? Better yet, send me away to Guantanamo. The SDMB doesn’t ban members for telling the truth – not yet anyway. Asshole. > [@treis](#): > > The US is directly responsible but that does not mean the US is murdering them After that gem, surely you can tell us how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. **Nietzsche** , good posts. Concise and to the point. TY. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/134 "2005-01-17T23:30:47Z")
> [@Nietzsche](#): > > It is indeed illegal, whether you get punished or not. It’s not a matter of whether you get punished or not, its whether you _can_ be punished or not. Until there’s an organization that the US either recognizes as having a valid say on the matter or who’s willing to enforce sanctions against the US for breaking international law, then the law is meaningless for the purposes of determining whether someone is a murderer by it. It’d be nice if the UN or the EU had the balls and or power to reign in the US, but they don’t… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/135 "2005-01-17T23:37:48Z")
Just because you can get away with doesn’t mean it’s not a crime. The US government is guilty of mass murder in Iraq. We are going to have to own that. History is not going to let us off the hook. ---
**Author:** ![Nietzsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8dc957/32.png) [@Nietzsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nietzsche)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/136 "2005-01-17T23:46:11Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > It’s not a matter of whether you get punished or not, its whether you _can_ be punished or not. That’s my point. The U.S. _can_ be punished. The fact that the EU, AU, or the UN don’t have the testicular fortitude to punish you doesn’t change a damn thing. If you break a law, you are committing a crime. Just because you get away with it, for whatever reason, doesn’t mean it was somehow legal. But I will agree with you to the extent that the net result is almost the same as if it were legal. **RedFury** : Sank yoh. Think we’ve made a dent in that mountain yet? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/137 "2005-01-17T23:52:11Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Better yet, send me away to Guantanamo. Uh, Red? I believe KidCharlemagne is kitchen-clean on your account. The way I read it, he’s asking why Diogenes the Cynic hasn’t been banned. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/138 "2005-01-17T23:57:17Z")
This whole thread is a mess. My only point was that labeling it a ‘campaign of genocide’ was stupid, false-to-facts, insulting, inflamatory, and trivializes actual campaigns of genocide. I didn’t want to debate the ultimate legality of the Iraq invasion, or even if those we kill over there are murdered or what not. That’s outside the scope of my OP. So please, let the thread die. It’s served its purpose. Ashes to ashes, photons to photons. Seyla. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/139 "2005-01-17T23:58:02Z")
That makes even less sense than saying it about **RedFury**. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101/140 "2005-01-18T00:43:38Z")
Blackhawk helicopter 303…We have the target in sight. In fact we can see him. HQ…Take him out. BH 303…But he’s at a wedding. There are innocents with him. HQ…Hold one 303. HQ checks with Rummy. BH 303 waits… HQ to BH 303…Take him out anyway. BH 303…But… HQ…no buts! He is a vat! we are at war! BH 303…yes sir. How can you not call that murder? I know this is facetious but things along this line has happened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic-us-troops-engaged-in-genocide/285101.md?page=8)