# Diogenes The Cynic **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 18, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546 "2004-11-18T21:43:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/21 "2004-11-18T22:39:00Z")
Is it my turn to start the next pit thread on Dio? Give me a day or two to think of something. So he thinks kids should spend a night in jail if they get caught with kids that are drinking. As long as the punishment isn’t too harsh, it’s fine by me. I think it’ll be a nifty deterrent. Overall, I give this pitting a 3. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/22 "2004-11-18T22:43:30Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > So are you for real, or are you just getting caught up in people’s criticism of your position again(like the youth sex thread), and you’ll sit here and defend your contrary position until you decide to backpedal like a motherfucker? Actually, I can’t think of an occasion when I’ve seen Dio backpedaling. What would be the point? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/23 "2004-11-18T22:47:28Z")
I almost started a pit about the same topic, but hey, at least his authoritarianism towards teens is consistent, if not consistent with some of his other views. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/24 "2004-11-18T22:47:50Z")
Welll…we already knew, from the teenage sex thread, that Diogenes was a pig when he was younger, now he tells us in the thread linked to that he was also completely irresponsible regarding alcohol… As a result, each and every teenager is like he used to be, and must be protected from himself, by enforcing strictly the laws, however stupid and arbitrary, preferably by throwing him in jail to eat rats if he ever come within 10 yards of someone else who drank alcohol. Aparently, fathering a daughter turned him into a legalistic dogmatic authoritarian. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/25 "2004-11-18T22:50:49Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Actually, I can’t think of an occasion when I’ve seen Dio backpedaling. What would be the point? I guess you missed the end of the teenage sex thread where by the end he was saying utter shite like “I didn’t mean such-and-such, that was a joke without a smiley, hah-hah!”, with every other post. Of course, he didn’t see it as backpedaling, but a few people in there called him on it. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Chastain86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/26 "2004-11-18T22:59:22Z")
There have been a handful of people at the SDMB that have pissed me off from time to time. **Aldebaran** and **astro** spring to mind. I hold no ill will to either of them – we simply had differences of opinion, and since then they’ve demonstrated the ability to keep a level head. And then, there’s the type of person that **Diogenes** is. Which is to say, a judgmental, paranoid, condescending, oft-wrong and never-admit-it, dodgy old crank with a strong command of the English language and – yet – possessing of not one iota of the sense to know when to be silent. You posit the most outlandish theories and spew snide remarks like they’re carbon dioxide. And then you have the unmitigated gall to wonder **WHY** you’ve been Pitted four times in recent history? Jesus, **Dio** , when are you going to get through your thick head that the problem isn’t with everybody else? The only common denominator in the problems you seem to have is YOU’RE involved. I just don’t understand why you don’t take any of this to heart. Why don’t you ever think, if only for a second, “Gee…perhaps some of those people are right. Maybe I’ve overreacted on a couple of topics. Maybe I _shouldn’t_ have called **Ilsa** “son” and treated people like they’re below me. Maybe I \*shouldn’t \* have acted as if I’m higher on the evolutionary chain than the people I interact with.” I just don’t get you. Where do you get off? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/27 "2004-11-18T23:08:06Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > at least his authoritarianism towards teens is consistent Consistent until enough people take him to task, at which point he says he didn’t really mean it. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/28 "2004-11-18T23:09:45Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > In context, I was just supporting a local ordinance which would allow the cops to bust kids at underage drinking parties even if they’re not actually drinking. I think the law would be a good deterrent. It sure would be a good deterrent. For one, it would deter those kids who went to those parties and made the choice to not drink from being so responsible. Leaving a popular party because other people are drinking is social suicide. It just won’t happen in most cases. Punishing kids for staying and declining to drink will only get them wondering why they’re bothering to decline in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/29 "2004-11-18T23:12:51Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Consistent until enough people take him to task, at which point he says he didn’t really mean it. Have I backed down from this? I really mean it. If you’re underage and you’re at a kegger you’re fair game when the bust comes. Why the hell shouldn’t you be? You would be if it was any other drug. What’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/30 "2004-11-18T23:16:29Z")
Jeez, we’re back to “punish everyone even if no-one is harmed” again? This is the _same_ issue as that other train-wreck. It is possible for folks that are 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 to consume alcohol responsibly. This is something that a lot of people are going to recognize based on personal experience. For example: I remember a birthday party for a friend of mine many years ago. There were a wide range of ages there. The bottom end was probably around thirteen. People at the the other end of the scale were legal adults. Yeah, there was alcohol at the party, but it wasn’t a big piss-up. Everyone was under control and having a good time – except for one stupid kid, who was probably around seventeen or eighteen. He was the boyfriend of one of the girls that was invited, and he came in determined to get _wasted_. He brought a bottle of cheap scotch with him to this end, and he quickly became a problem. He didn’t like to be told that he was drinking too much, and he didn’t like being asked to leave. He got more and more aggressive and obnoxious, and eventually someone called the cops for a little help with the problem. When they showed up, they were brought in to the rec-room where the troublemaker was continuing to make an ass of himself. On the way in, they could easily observe that some of the other people who were there were clearly underage. They asked a couple of questions to determine exactly _how_ this kid got himself into the state that he was in. He owned up that he brought his own liquor, and opined that he’d drink as much as he’d like, and fuck everyone else for “ragging on him” about it. They asked who’s house it was, and if we thought they’d have any call to come back again. And then they left, taking the source of the trouble with them, and assured that everyone else in the house was going to behave responsibly. _That_ is a realistic approach to the situation. People have their own personal responsibility, and there’s no creation of an artificially antagonistic relationship between people and the law. The cops were the guys who came in and fixed a problem. My friend’s sister’s eighteenth birthday was a good time, and with one exception, alcohol was used in a responsible way for the enhancement of it. The moron had the opportunity to learn that more alcohol does not equate to more fun, and he served as a fine example to the young people there of an easy way to become a loser and a social outcast. The idea that there would be a net gain if everyone in the house was arrested is absurd. The Law should be crafted and applied with common sense. If you take an extreme authoritarian approach, and say you must NEVER NEVER NEVER drink alcohol until your 21st birthday, and there will be SEVERE penalties for any transgressions, and the same penalties will be applied to anyone who fails to report others’ transgressions, what do you think is going to be the result? A general trend toward moderate and responsible attitudes about alcohol? Ha! Right. How about an increased value placed on drinking, and an entrenched belief that the law is something that needs to be circumvented in order to live like a human being? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/31 "2004-11-18T23:16:37Z")
> [@iamthewalrus(:3=](#): > > It sure would be a good deterrent. For one, it would deter those kids who went to those parties and made the choice to not drink from being so responsible. Leaving a popular party because other people are drinking is social suicide. It just won’t happen in most cases. Punishing kids for staying and declining to drink will only get them wondering why they’re bothering to decline in the first place. What’s responsible about going to watch people commit crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/32 "2004-11-18T23:18:54Z")
**Larry** , I said in the other thread I thought the age should be 18. I agree 21 is too old. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/33 "2004-11-18T23:19:25Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > I guess you missed the end of the teenage sex thread Okay, I’ll admit I bailed on that one early because watching Dio be contrary for contrary’s sake gets dull _real_ fast. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/34 "2004-11-18T23:39:08Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What’s responsible about going to watch people commit crimes? You know, I was not always able to disuade my friends from commiting crimes, or from going to events where crimes were going on. I sometimes went with them, not to have fun as I hated parties, but to help ensure their safety. I was that sober voice that prevented more than one party from getting out of hand. More than once did I prevent a friend from being sexually assaulted. More than once was I able to make sure that no one was hurt, and no property was damaged. As someone who lives a felony every day, and every day strives to be a responsible citizen, I remind you that what is legal and what is right are not always the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/35 "2004-11-18T23:40:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Have I backed down from this? > > I really mean it. If you’re underage and you’re at a kegger you’re fair game when the bust comes. Why the hell shouldn’t you be? You would be if it was any other drug. What’s the difference? Is that true, **Diogenes**? If a kid is at a party where another kid has popped a couple of his father’s Vicodins is the first kid in violation of a law? When I was busted for marijuana back in 1972 part of my court costs went to pay for the test to determine if in fact what I possessed _was_ marijuana. If the sherriff can’t look at a bag of grass and tell what it is how is it reasonable to expect a civilian to know what everyone else at a party has ingested, whether or not the things ingested are drugs, and whether or not the drugs were legal? C’mon man. People are responsible for what they do, not for what everyone else does. Let’s take this thing to its logical extreme. If a hundred kids are at a party stone cold sober and one kid shows up after downing a mini bottle of vodka, we now have 101 lawbreakers. This is a really stupid law. ---
**Author:** ![kevja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/36 "2004-11-18T23:48:55Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > People can’t learn from mistakes? > > I’m not excusing my teenage behavior, it was disgraceful. My point was that getting arrested was a good kick in the ass for me. It woke me up. If it hadn’t happened I probably would have spun out even worse. Wow. It must a been really disgraceful if it took getting arrested to wake you up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/37 "2004-11-18T23:52:52Z")
Let’s not twist this around and try to find conclusions that I haven’t drawn. I’m just talking about making life easier for the cops and the courts to bust drinking parties. They don’t have the time to sort out who’s really drinking and who isn’t, and they’re all going to _say_ they weren’t drinking, so an ordinance like the one in question just allows the cops to throw everyone in the wagonon without having to listn to a lot of weasel stories from innocent lambs. I can’t see why it’s so terrible to make it illegal for minors to go to keggers. We don’t let them into bars even if they don’t drink. What’s the difference? The parties are socially popular? Who cares? The fact they’re popular is the core of the problem. We need to offer some strong incentives for them _not_ to be popular. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/38 "2004-11-18T23:58:50Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What’s responsible about going to watch people commit crimes? You’re fucking kidding me, right? How about being the designated driver. Responsible enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/39 "2004-11-18T23:59:39Z")
Oh I get it, so it’s not that you’re an authoritarian fuckface, it’s that you want to help make law enforcement’s job easier, right? YOu’re such an altruist, Dio! I say we criminalize everything about growing up, that way your little daughter would never ever have to worry about these things. Make drinking underage a felony hit, make underage sex a felony like you proposed a couple days ago, fuck, let’s make joy-riding in your parent’s car and smoking a hooter(two things I’m SURE you’ve never done), criminalizeable offenses too. Then we can REALLY get our convict population up there. Maybe it’s good to get our society institutionalized early on-since a ridiculous percentage will end up there anyways. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/40 "2004-11-19T00:00:32Z")
But, Dio, you’re missing the very important point that not all parties are “keggers” **up front.** You keep talking about making it illegal for minors going to keggers. Well, sure, no problem, **that’s** a no-brainer. It should be illegal for minors to go to keggers. But you’re overlooking the fact that many teen parties start out as simple “parties”, and the next thing you know, there’s underage drinking going on. And it’s simply not fair for the cops to haul in all the kids who were originally invited to a plain vanilla “party” at which alcohol suddenly appeared. > [@](#): > > **This is a really stupid law.** Yup, sure is. I’d be furious if one of my kids was at a party where the cops hauled in _everybody_ just because a few people were drinking. I’d be furious at the law, and the cops, not the kid. Because as anybody who has ever been a normal teenager knows, it usually just ain’t in a kid to blow the whistle, or even to call Mom and say, “Hey, can you come get me?” No way. Social death. So Kiddo just sits there watching everybody else get tanked, or stoned. Passive. Now, I would hope that my kids at least would have the gumption to say, “Hey, I’m outta here”, and go find a phone and call home and say, “Come get me”. But if they **didn’t** , I’d understand perfectly. And I wouldn’t hold it against them. They’re kids, for heaven’s sake. You can’t expect adult thought processing and an awareness of potential consequences from kids. The Better Half once happened to be driving past the place where he’d dropped off our 14-year-old daughter at a party about an hour previously, and half the kids were standing around outside, smoking (our kid was not one of them, however). So he went inside, established that there were no longer any adults in the house, as there had been when he’d dropped her off, and he hauled her butt out of there, end of story. Now, that time, no, she didn’t say, “Oh my goodness, there is illegal activity going on here!” and phone home, and leave. And I wasn’t surprised. To make a BFD out of the fact that a lot of her 14-year-old peers were smoking would have cost her the tiny bit of social cachet she had, and having her dad appear like the demon king out of a trapdoor and drag her home didn’t help. But at least she wasn’t the whistleblower, she could tell 'em with perfect truth, “He just happened to be driving past after putting gas in the car and he saw y’all smoking on the porch.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546.md?page=3)