# Diogenes The Cynic **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 18, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546 "2004-11-18T21:43:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/41 "2004-11-19T00:03:57Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You’ll understand when you grow up…maybe. Oh, fuck you for resorting to this bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/42 "2004-11-19T00:08:34Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > **Larry** , I said in the other thread I thought the age should be 18. I agree 21 is too old. Sorry, **Dio** – I only glanced at the GD thread. I think the point still stands even if you set the magic age at eighteen, though. Hell, I think it should be fine for a thirteen-year-old to have a beer or a bit of wine. You don’t wait until you’re eighteen to start learning responsible behaviour. > [@Diogenes](#): > > The fact they’re popular is the core of the problem. We need to offer some strong incentives for them not to be popular. I think we see a different root cause for problem drinking. The eighteenth amendment offered a strong incentive for drinking to “not be popular” for _all_ Americans, and yet the twenties distinguished themselves by virtue of having more and bigger piss-ups than the '10s or '30s. Why would you expect this to turn out any differently? It’s the same mentality. Try to solve a minority problem of excess with an impracticably broad law. Disastrous, and stupid on the face of it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/43 "2004-11-19T00:14:01Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Oh I get it, so it’s not that you’re an authoritarian fuckface, it’s that you want to help make law enforcement’s job easier, right? YOu’re such an altruist, Dio! Why does being opposed to teen keggers make me an “authoritarian?” I think teenage binge drinking is more than a trivial problem and we should create strong disincentives for them to do it. > [@](#): > > I say we criminalize everything about growing up, that way your little daughter would never ever have to worry about these things. Make drinking underage a felony hit, make underage sex a felony like you proposed a couple days ago That’s not quite what I said. I said it should be a felony if an _adult_ has sex with a minor, not for two minors. > [@](#): > > fuck, let’s make joy-riding in your parent’s car and smoking a hooter(two things I’m SURE you’ve never done), criminalizeable offenses too. > > Then we can REALLY get our convict population up there. Maybe it’s good to get our society institutionalized early on-since a ridiculous percentage will end up there anyways. I think you’re gettin a little carried away here. I havn’t suggested prison time for underage drinking and I’m not a moralist. I think drugs should be legalized. I think that _adults_- defined as those who reached an age of legal accountability- should be able to do pretty much whatever they want as long as they don’t hurt other people. As long as you’re a grown up, you can live like Caligula, but what’s wrong with having a line of adulthood? Sam [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/44 "2004-11-19T00:21:50Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > …what’s wrong with having a line of adulthood? Probably that it’s necessarily arbitrary and imaginary. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/45 "2004-11-19T00:23:41Z")
> [@lee](#): > > You know, I was not always able to disuade my friends from commiting crimes, or from going to events where crimes were going on. I sometimes went with them, not to have fun as I hated parties, but to help ensure their safety. I was that sober voice that prevented more than one party from getting out of hand. More than once did I prevent a friend from being sexually assaulted. More than once was I able to make sure that no one was hurt, and no property was damaged. > > As someone who lives a felony every day, and every day strives to be a responsible citizen, I remind you that what is legal and what is right are not always the same thing. Thank you **lee**. I know y’all hate it when people quote the entire post, but I really think this needs to be repeating. I have drunk with people who were/are under the age of 21. I think the law is stupid and that we would be far more responsible drinkers if there was no legal age for alcohol. I would rather my underaged friends drink with me so I can watch them and make sure they stay safe then have them go drinking with their friends and do stupid shit or have stupid shit done to them. In high school I had too many female friends been raped or sexually molested because they got too shit-faced to say ‘no’ or assert themselves. I have taken my little sister to parties where there has been drinking as my older brother took me. Most of my friends who learned from alcohol went to a party, got wasted, pucked 30 times and learned their lesson. The ones who didn’t learn are those who were completely sheltered until the alcohol took their life out of control. It might have taken a run-in with the law to make you, **GTC** , responsible, but until I turned 21, I was the responsible one at the parties, making sure my friends didn’t fuck up. If such a law were put into practice, I would stay away from such parties and not be able to help my friends. People like me who like being clean and plan on staying that way would not be able to help our friends. This law would hurt teens, not help them. **Diogenes the Cynic** , I have respected you for a long time but lately it seems you have gotten overly harsh and judgmental. I strongly suggest that you take a few steps back and read carefully everything that has been said to you recently. ---
**Author:** ![smartini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@smartini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smartini)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/46 "2004-11-19T00:24:13Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Aparently, fathering a daughter turned him into a legalistic dogmatic authoritarian. Oh, give the man a break if he has a daughter, for pete’s sake…he is obviously afraid she will end up dating someone like dear ol’ dad! Perfectly normal dad-behavior. 😉 _is it ok to say “pete’s sake” in the pit or will I get hit by a mod stick?_ ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/47 "2004-11-19T00:26:25Z")
I’m aware that this is a hijack of epic proportions, but I have a question: **Dion** , what in the world were you doing in Liberia in the early 1980’s? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/48 "2004-11-19T00:29:36Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > They don’t have the time to sort out who’s really drinking and who isn’t, So let’s just kill 'em all and let God sort is out? Oh, I mean, arrest 'em all and don’t sort 'em out? (would you be happy if we applied this logic to Iraq? Anybody near someone with an AK should be blown to pieces, I’m just making it easier for the troops, right?) > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > and they’re all going to _say_ they weren’t drinking, Oh, if only someone had invented a scientific test to determine blood alcohol content! If only! Guess we can only arrest 'em all. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > so an ordinance like the one in question just allows the cops to throw everyone in the wagonon without having to listn to a lot of weasel stories from innocent lambs. Yeah, why worry about who’s actually innocent of any wrongdoing and who’s in the same room. Lock 'em all up! Making all underage kids feel like a persecuted minority with a shared community based on drinking and adults-who-just-don’t-get-them will surely curtail such behavior. Teens love authority. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I can’t see why it’s so terrible to make it illegal for minors to go to keggers. We don’t let them into bars even if they don’t drink. What’s the difference? Last time I checked if a person who’s underage tries to walk into a bar they get carded, and turned away, not arrested. (Besides, part of the ‘thrill’ of a keger is that you’re doing something grown-ups-do and it’s illegal so you get to be all cool and rebellious) > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The parties are socially popular? Who cares? Someone concerned with the dynamic and reality rather than moralizing? > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The fact they’re popular is the core of the problem. We need to offer som > e strong incentives for them _not_ to be popular. ~sighs~ Same problems as before **Dio** Law =/= Morality. Telling teens not to do something will not make them stop. And, the kicker **punishing teens who are designated drivers and excusing it by saying "well, they went to the party, they deserve what they get**" \* ammounts to more dead kids\* ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/49 "2004-11-19T00:34:58Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Have I backed down from this? First you want to toss them in jail if they don’t report the crime, then you say you don’t really expect anyone to report the crime. Yeah, I’d say you backed down a bit. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/50 "2004-11-19T00:38:54Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Why does being opposed to teen keggers make me an “authoritarian?” I think teenage binge drinking is more than a trivial problem and we should create strong disincentives for them to do it. This is such crap, Dio. You’re not some huge altruistic soul who’s looking to protect the world. Stop it. And how on earth can you deny the authoritarian streak that is at least a mile wide in you? Really man, stop it. You don’t say these fucking oddball things because you’re worried about teens the world over who are drinking too much. If so, you’d suggest something along the lines of treatment and an educationa bout substance abuse, not jail for a night. Your solutions(again), will do no good and in this case, coveting the all powerful booze and hiding it from teens until that magical day when they can legally partake of it will probably do more damage. > [@](#): > > I think you’re gettin a little carried away here. Yes I was, to prove a point. In less than 7 days you’ve tried to puch the ideas that people’s 2 most favorite hobbies should be criminalized for certain groups with the most harlinde, hardass approach to how things should be enforced. If you’re going to behave in these ways for sex and booze, why decriminalize drugs? Why lower the drinking age? Just ban them fucking outright and make their use wholly illegal. Don’t treat people and kids for the use/overuse of said things, just fucking lock the sickos up with the rats. Sheesh. Sam ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/51 "2004-11-19T00:40:37Z")
I am not sure how such an ordinance can be written to pass constitutional muster. If a 20 year old is at a party with other late teens and early 20’s, are they responsible for ensuring that no underage people are drinking? Does the presence of one legal-age individual cancel all liability under this? If a parent has two children, one aged 20 and the other 14, and they chose to give the 20 year old a glass of wine with his or her dinner, is the 14 year old liable for arrest? If I attend a college football game, as I will this Saturday, and see some annoying drunk frat boys, are the other 30,000 plus in the stadium to be thrown in prison? Or only the underage ones? How young do we go on this? I really don’t see how this can be limited. Being in the presence of an offense is rarely itself an offense, and nor should it be. If the township wants to criminalize gatherings of young people, they should address that problem. Not that there won’t be constitutional issues there of course. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/52 "2004-11-19T00:42:53Z")
I said it in the the under age sex thread and I repeat it: “Everything that isn’t mandatory is forbidden” I don’t live in the US, but for the sake of all Americans, and considering DtC’s burnout following the election, you guys are better off with GwB than with the likes of DtC\*, no matter how far to the left you are. After his apology in the sex thread, I thought everything cooled down. But it didn’t. There’s a mindset which is very dogmatic, a feeling of superiority and of morality. Had I not known that DtC is a lefty, I’d think he was a moral majority, right-wing, nut case, based on these two threads. “Social Libertarian”, indeed… :rolleyes: Not saying that Kerry is like DtC. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/53 "2004-11-19T00:43:24Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Probably that it’s necessarily arbitrary and imaginary. I agree that it’s necessarily arbitrary but isn’t it also necessary? Never mind the drinking issue, what about just general legal accountability? At what age should a person be legally able to enter into a contract, join the army, lease a car and work in the porn industry? The age is different for everyone of course, I’m 38 and I’m still not really a grown up yet, but we still need a legal bright line just to keep our society from falling into chaos. Hell, I might even be able to be persuaded set the age a hair lower than 18. 16 might work if it was consistent. As to the efficacy of prohibition, I’m generally in accord, but teenagers are physically more vulnerable to the effects of drugs and alcohol than adults (I can find cites if pressed) so I think that abuse should be discouraged and not reinforced as popular or cool. If there’s a way to do that without legal sanctions, I’m perfectly willing to listen. When I’ve been in Europe and other places where the drinking age was lower or non existent, the "coolness’ factor in getting wasted didn’t really seem to be there ad I think it was because there’s no rebellion in it. Getting puking drunk is just seen as lame. It’s not that Kids don’t drink, they do, but it’s considered uncool to overdo it. I don’t knpw how we could bring about that kind of broad change in cultural perception here, though. My fear is that unlocking the liquor cabinet for _American_ kids would just lead to unbridled binge drinking and fatalities. At least for the first generation. How would you suggest that we teach kids responsible use of alcohol (or pot, for that matter)? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/54 "2004-11-19T00:43:57Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’m saying don’t go to parties if you don’t want to get busted. You’ll understand when you grow up…maybe. Would you also tell people not to have sex if they don’t want to get pregnant? I have to add, though, that this pitting is pretty lame. And the call to “eat shit and die” is beyond tasteless, **Ilsa**. If you were older, I’d tell you to have a drink and calm down… ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/55 "2004-11-19T00:52:08Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t knpw how we could bring about that kind of broad change in cultural perception here, though. My fear is that unlocking the liquor cabinet for _American_ kids would just lead to unbridled binge drinking and fatalities. At least for the first generation. But if the other sytem works, and ours doesn’t (at least as well) doesn’t it make sense to start on some plan to make thing better, rather than arresting kids who **are** being responsible by not drinking and whose only crime is socializing with those who do. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > How would you suggest that we teach kids responsible use of alcohol (or pot, for that matter)? Education, communication, honesty. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/56 "2004-11-19T00:53:22Z")
> [@Governor Quinn](#): > > I’m aware that this is a hijack of epic proportions, but I have a question: > > **Dion** , what in the world were you doing in Liberia in the early 1980’s? I checked to make sure there wasn’t a **Dion** in this thread so I’m sure you must have been talking to me? Did you get that from another thread, I don’t think I mentioned it in this one? I was in Liberia because me father was in the State Department and was doing a tour at the American Embassy in Monrovia. I went to a private American high school while I was there and actually graduated from it. I was lucky. I was there between coups and got out before the war started. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/57 "2004-11-19T00:59:28Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Would you also tell people not to have sex if they don’t want to get pregnant? I do tell people that because it’s always a possibility even with protection. What I mean by that is not that sex should only be for procreation but that when people choose to have sex or choose partners they should ask themselves if they could handle a pregnancy and if this is a person they could handle it _with_. The above applies only to fertile heterosexuals, of course. If you’re fixed or if you’re gay, no worries, mate. ---
**Author:** ![Already\_in\_Use](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Already\_in\_Use](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Already_in_Use)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/58 "2004-11-19T01:03:28Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Let’s not twist this around and try to find conclusions that I haven’t drawn. I’m just talking about making life easier for the cops and the courts to bust drinking parties. They don’t have the time to sort out who’s really drinking and who isn’t, and they’re all going to _say_ they weren’t drinking, so an ordinance like the one in question just allows the cops to throw everyone in the wagonon without having to listn to a lot of weasel stories from innocent lambs. Ah, OK, so you advocate a policy of “guilty until proven innocent.” Or more accurately, “fuck you, kiddies, you’re guilty either way.” Nice to find out what kind of an enlightened liberal you really are. **Diogenes** , you’re a smart guy and I find myself agreeing with a lot of your posts, but this is really a nutty position to take. I’m 20 and I go to parties occasionally, and alcohol is ubiquitous at parties in college. I never drink myself (not out of respect for our stupid laws, but for personal reasons, but that isn’t really relevant, as I’m obeying the law anyway). So by your logic, I should be arrested for wanting to hang out with my friends on weekends? What should I do, personally check the ID of everyone at every party I attend to make sure they’re following the law? Well, fuck you too. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/59 "2004-11-19T01:06:56Z")
> [@Already in Use](#): > > Ah, OK, so you advocate a policy of “guilty until proven innocent.” Or more accurately, “fuck you, kiddies, you’re guilty either way.” Nice to find out what kind of an enlightened liberal you really are. > > **Diogenes** , you’re a smart guy and I find myself agreeing with a lot of your posts, but this is really a nutty position to take. I’m 20 and I go to parties occasionally, and alcohol is ubiquitous at parties in college. I never drink myself (not out of respect for our stupid laws, but for personal reasons, but that isn’t really relevant, as I’m obeying the law anyway). So by your logic, I should be arrested for wanting to hang out with my friends on weekends? What should I do, personally check the ID of everyone at every party I attend to make sure they’re following the law? Well, fuck you too. No, I think 20 is too old for these drinking laws. I’d lower it to 18…maybe even more. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/60 "2004-11-19T01:07:31Z")
I just LOVE the idea of busting the guys at a party who are not drinking so they can drive their foolish friends home afterwards. We need more drunk drivers especially as Xmas is comming. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546.md?page=4)