# Diogenes The Cynic **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 18, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546 "2004-11-18T21:43:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/81 "2004-11-19T02:44:41Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Perhaps, but if that’s true why didn’t he bother to respond? Well, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but there seem to be quite a few dopers after Diogenes attention these days. Have to give him some credit. He’s doing well keeping up with as many posts as he has. He’s also being a real sport about this whole thing. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/82 "2004-11-19T02:52:09Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Perhaps, but if that’s true why didn’t he bother to respond? When you’re getting reamed by twenty people at once it’s kind of hard to keep track of which dick is where. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/83 "2004-11-19T03:11:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Which is to say, a judgmental, paranoid, condescending, oft-wrong and never-admit-it, dodgy old crank with a strong command of the English language and – yet – possessing of not one iota of the sense to know when to be silent. He isn’t old. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/84 "2004-11-19T03:13:18Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > When you’re getting reamed by twenty people at once it’s kind of hard to keep track of which dick is where. Um, can’t we just be friends? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/85 "2004-11-19T03:34:53Z")
**Lute Skywatcher** : Yep, that’d be it. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/86 "2004-11-19T03:36:51Z")
Look, whether or not underage drinking, or having a drinking age in the first place, is or should be legal/moral/whatever is one thing. It’s certainly a topic on which reasonable people can disagree. Let’s not lose sight, though, of the statement that earned **Diogenes** this Pitting in the first place, namely that minors should be punished for being at a party where drinking is occuring, _even if they aren’t drinking_. Brilliant. Fucking brilliant. Let’s punish people who DIDN’T DO ANYTHING WRONG! That way, we can teach them what will happen if they ever DID do anything wrong! That ought to scare them enough to keep them from doing it! It’s a preventative measure! In fact, let’s send ALL the kids to jail for a night, whether they went to a kegger or not! That will show them! I mean, hell, as long as we’re punishing people who DIDN’T DO ANYTHING WRONG just to teach them a lesson, why be picky? Isn’t the lesson that “Jail Sucks” equally applicable to everyone? And clearly, they haven’t figured it out for themselves, given that they’ve engaged in the horrible act of NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG! But wait, says **Diogenes**! The two situations are not analogous! Sure, in both situations, the person in question DIDN’T DO ANYTHING WRONG, but in the first one, he was in the _presence_ of people who were doing something wrong! Obviously, people who are NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG within an X-foot proximity of people who _are_ something wrong are doing something wrong, regardless of whether they’re doing anything wrong or not! Confused yet? **Diogenes** isn’t…or at least, that’s what he’d have you believe! Seriously, **Dio** , if you honestly advocate this position, I cannot fathom your personal moral code. Let’s cast aside for the moment the (pretty fucking significant) ethical misconduct involved in punishing people who were not only not only doing anything wrong, but in fact _consciously resisting_ both peer pressure and ample opportunity TO do something wrong given their environment. Let’s focus only on the pragmatic angle, which is the authoritarian’s stock in trade. You do realize that, under this system, you’ll be teaching these kids one thing and one thing alone: when (not if) you go to a social gathering where drinking ends up occurring, and it gets busted by the police, you’re gonna go to jail whether you were drinking or not. So…want a beer? For what it’s worth, I’m 20, and the most alcohol I have ever consumed was a sip of beer given to me by my dad when I asked him what it tasted like. This is a conscious choice on my part; while I don’t have any moral objections to drinking (I believe it to be a personal decision), I simply don’t like feeling loss of control over my own actions. It would’ve been easy enough to drink had I wanted to do so; by the time I was 16, neither of my parents would’ve given a damn as long as I only did it at home, and my stepdad used to try to get my to have a beer with him regularly. I have been to numerous “parties” (more like little get-togethers, really; I don’t like wild-n’-crazy gatherings) where underaged drinking has been going on, and nothing bad has ever come as a result, either for me, or for anyone involved. Your insistance that I have some obligation to call the cops on my own friends, who are having two beers and sleeping over and driving nowhere and hurting nobody, is enough to merit a big fat “fuck you”. But your assertion that I ought to face _legal prosecution_ for _choosing not to engage in underaged drinking_ simply because my friends made the choice to do so, and I made the choice not to actively shun them because of it…it moves beyond the scope of my vocabulary of profanity. Even the mighty “I would tell you to suck my cock, you fucking goat-felching douchebag son of a motherless whore, were it not that your shit-spewing tongue is not fit to lick the mold from the fetid scrotum of a leper’s rotting corpse”, falls well short of the mark here. Nonetheless, I trust I am understood. From the constant stream of anti-Bush flames coming from the blowtorch of his keyboard in the days surrounding the election, I mistook **Diogenes** for a liberal. You will, of course, forgive me for my temporary insanity, if indeed this is the sort of position he generally takes. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/87 "2004-11-19T03:39:02Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > This could easily fill a thread on its own, because I think you and I have extremely contrary views on human development. I’ll try to manage as brief a summary of my views on this as possible, here: **Larry** , I would like to say that this was a spectacularly excellent and sensible post. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/88 "2004-11-19T03:53:20Z")
OK, now I’m really confused on **Dio** ’s moral code. Maybe I can get this one answered. **Diogenes** , you’ve taken a surprisingly rigid stance on underage non-drinkers to go to jail if caught near others that are drinking. No law being broke, but toss them in jail to teach a moral lesson. However, how would you feel if the same 16 year old obtained an abortion without notifying her parents? No law broken, so no jail, right? They should be equal since hanging out with drinkers is a little less harmful than abortion? I’m really curious how you would compare these two and which you would consider the lesser of the two. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/89 "2004-11-19T03:53:29Z")
> [@Roland Orzabal](#): > > Look, whether or not underage drinking, or having a drinking age in the first place, is or should be legal/moral/whatever is one thing. It’s certainly a topic on which reasonable people can disagree. Let’s not lose sight, though, of the statement that earned **Diogenes** this Pitting in the first place, namely that minors should be punished for being at a party where drinking is occuring, _even if they aren’t drinking_. > > Brilliant. Fucking brilliant. Let’s punish people who DIDN’T DO ANYTHING WRONG! Ah, but my position is that they _did_ do something wrong. they went to a party where illegal drug use was taking place (and that’s what underage drinking really is) and they didn’t leave or report it. To draw an absurdly stupid analogy, you would not say that a person who watches a rape and does not participate but also does not report it, does not leave, and does not try to stop it, has done nothing wrong. Now underage drinking is in no way analogous to rape, but I hope I’ve established that if you are present while a crime is being committed it is not necessarily a get out jail free card that you didn’t participate. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/90 "2004-11-19T03:55:49Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > To draw an absurdly stupid analogy, you would not say that a person who watches a rape and does not participate but also does not report it, does not leave, and does not try to stop it, has done nothing wrong. Now underage drinking is in no way analogous to rape, but I hope I’ve established that if you are present while a crime is being committed it is not necessarily a get out jail free card that you didn’t participate. Forget my previous post. You’ve just equated rape to being around some friends driking beer. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/91 "2004-11-19T04:05:34Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > OK, now I’m really confused on **Dio** ’s moral code. Maybe I can get this one answered. > > **Diogenes** , you’ve taken a surprisingly rigid stance on underage non-drinkers to go to jail if caught near others that are drinking. No law being broke, but toss them in jail to teach a moral lesson. In this case, a law _was_ being broken. The original thread was about an ordinance that made it illegal for minors to be at a drinking party even if they weren’t personally drinking. I expressed support for that law. Obviously, I don’t think people should be arrested if they haven’t broken a law. > [@](#): > > However, how would you feel if the same 16 year old obtained an abortion without notifying her parents? No law broken, so no jail, right? They should be equal since hanging out with drinkers is a little less harmful than abortion? > > I’m really curious how you would compare these two and which you would consider the lesser of the two. Since no law is broken in the abortion case, and since I have no moral problem with abortion, I don’t even think it’s a question of the “lesser.” An abortion may be more emotionally traumatic but it’s not dangerous the way underage drinking is. I also think that there are many cases where a requirement for parental notification would lead to attempts at illegal abortion, self-abortion, runaways, abandoned newborns and even neonaticide. Not all parents are going to be understanding and nurturing, some will be abusive and some made the baby (I personally have known two women who were impregnated by their own stepfathers). I think it’s necessary to the health and safety of these girls to protect their privacy in what is ultimately a completely personal decision about their own bodies. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/92 "2004-11-19T04:05:51Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Ah, but my position is that they _did_ do something wrong. they went to a party where illegal drug use was taking place (and that’s what underage drinking really is) and they didn’t leave or report it. Okay… So we’ve gotta tell Big Brother when our family/friends/whatever are engaging in victimless crimes? And by the way, your position may be that they did something wrong, but please, enumerate in detail what _exactly_ they did wrong. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > To draw an absurdly stupid analogy, you would not say that a person who watches a rape and does not participate but also does not report it, does not leave, and does not try to stop it, has done nothing wrong. Now underage drinking is in no way analogous to rape, but I hope I’ve established that if you are present while a crime is being committed it is not necessarily a get out jail free card that you didn’t participate. :eek: You’re kidding right? :eek: If you’re around someone who is commiting a crime that harms someone else, then yes, you should certainly try to help. If someone is doing something which is an Orwellian “victimless crime”, and you report them, who on earth have you actually helped? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/93 "2004-11-19T04:09:59Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Forget my previous post. You’ve just equated rape to being around some friends driking beer. Got it. No, **Duff** , I said it was an “absurdly stupid analogy” and that the crimes in question were in no way analogous. I was using an extreme example to make a point, not about the relative nature of the crimes but about whether not directly participating in a crime necessarily means you didn’t do anything wrong. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/94 "2004-11-19T04:14:49Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > An abortion may be more emotionally traumatic but it’s not dangerous the way underage drinking is. And this is what was getting me confused. Yes, underage drinking is dangerous. Inexperience can lead to massive alcohol poisoning. Regardless of age, it can also lead to drunk driving, violent crime, and unprotected sex. (Leading to pregnancy often. Funny that) And of course the biggie, rape. Now how does any of the above fit into the reason for locking up a kid that _isn’t breaking any laws?_ (BTW, thanks for a response that didn’t call my mother a goat-feltcher) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/95 "2004-11-19T04:15:28Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Okay… > So we’ve gotta tell Big Brother when our family/friends/whatever are engaging in victimless crimes? > > And by the way, your position may be that they did something wrong, but please, enumerate in detail what _exactly_ they did wrong. > > :eek: > You’re kidding right? > :eek: > > If you’re around someone who is commiting a crime that harms someone else, then yes, you should certainly try to help. > If someone is doing something which is an Orwellian “victimless crime”, and you report them, who on earth have you actually helped? I don’t agree that it’s victimless. Teenage binge drinking is extremely self-injurious behavior. They are literally poisoning themselves (and alcohol _is_ a poison), and one should feel no more comfortable watching it than watching them huff gasoline or snort crank. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/96 "2004-11-19T04:20:11Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > And this is what was getting me confused. Yes, underage drinking is dangerous. Inexperience can lead to massive alcohol poisoning. Regardless of age, it can also lead to drunk driving, violent crime, and unprotected sex. (Leading to pregnancy often. Funny that) And of course the biggie, rape. > > Now how does any of the above fit into the reason for locking up a kid that _isn’t breaking any laws?_ In the case of this one town, the kid _would_ be breaking the law. There is a specific law which makes it illegal for them to be at the kegger even if they are not personally drinking. Whether that’s a good law or a bad law is obviously debatable, but in this one town, at least, they \*would[/ be breaking the law. > [@](#): > > (BTW, thanks for a response that didn’t call my mother a goat-feltcher) 😉 No problem. You didn’t call me one. Are you going to be in Grand Forks the week after Christmas? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/97 "2004-11-19T04:20:29Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No, **Duff** , I said it was an “absurdly stupid analogy” and that the crimes in question were in no way analogous. I was using an extreme example to make a point, not about the relative nature of the crimes but about whether not directly participating in a crime necessarily means you didn’t do anything wrong. First, it’s so absurd it shouldn’t have been used. Second, since all crimes are not equal, finding one which you have a moral obligation to stop doesn’t mean that any other crime has the same obligation. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t agree that it’s victimless. Teenage binge drinking is extremely self-injurious behavior. They are literally poisoning themselves (and alcohol is a poison), and one should feel no more comfortable watching it than watching them huff gasoline or snort crank. Victimless as in, there is no _victim_. I could go drink bleach right now, and yes, it’d hurt me, but there wouldn’t be a victim. Punishing people for making their own choices is a Big Brother-esque move. I think that sort of logic is bullshit when people apply it to marijuana, underage drinking, etc… acting as if ‘self injury’ is equal to ‘hurting someone else’ is just wacky. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/98 "2004-11-19T04:23:32Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > First, it’s so absurd it shouldn’t have been used. > Second, since all crimes are not equal, finding one which you have a moral obligation to stop doesn’t mean that any other crime has the same obligation. > > Victimless as in, there is no _victim_. > I could go drink bleach right now, and yes, it’d hurt me, but there wouldn’t be a victim. > Punishing people for making their own choices is a Big Brother-esque move. > I think that sort of logic is bullshit when people apply it to marijuana, underage drinking, etc… acting as if ‘self injury’ is equal to ‘hurting someone else’ is just wacky. We have an obligation to stop kids from harming themselves. Kids do die because they don’t know how to drink. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/99 "2004-11-19T04:25:53Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Are you going to be in Grand Forks the week after Christmas? I fear I’ll be here till I die. Are you taking me up on the beer I offered? I guess we’re just of differing minds on this subject. Not enough to get worked up over, so I’m going back to lurking. It’s much easier on my stress level. Meaning it can build up till the next time I have to pit you. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546/100 "2004-11-19T04:26:21Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > We have an obligation to stop kids from harming themselves. Agreed. Now, by what strange alchemy do we go from that to, “we have to save kids who are **not** drinking from the perils of **not drinking?** ” Yes, we should provide education and rehab for kids who have alcohol problems, but how on God’s Green Earth does arresting people who aren’t drinking help the people who are? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/275546.md?page=6)