# Diogenes the Cynic **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 24, 2007, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233 "2007-01-24T13:47:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/1 "2007-01-24T13:47:49Z")
God, I hate doing this pitting because I like you. But dammit, I feel pretty strongly about this, and derailing the [Cafe Society thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=405241) would just bring _Misery_ to everyone. (Get it? God I love you … _whap!_. Yeah, I know… [groan].) Anyway, it started [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8181969&postcount=21)… > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > What kind of a dickwad skips out on his wife having a baby to audition for American Idol? … and continued [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8181980&postcount=23)… > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Simon was right. That guy couldn’t start his songs on key. Plus he’s an asswipe just for being there. …and just in case people in a coma hadn’t gotten the point yet, it culminated [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8182469&postcount=32)… > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The[n] he should have left the audition as soon as she called. It couldn’t have been THAT much of a surprise, regardless. Only a piece of crap decides it’s more important to try to get on TV than to go to his wife’s side immediately. If the baby was really more important to him than Hollywood then he wouldn’t have been in line. He wasn’t even that good of a singer. I said pretty much all I could say in that thread [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8182367&postcount=27) > [@Liberal](#): > > The kind who was surprised by an unexpected delivery maybe? I rewatched his audition, and when Randy asked where was his cigar, the guy answered, “I wasn’t prepared for this.” And I took the this to refer to the birth that they had all just applauded and that Randy had just alluded to. He said the baby was more important than Hollywood in any case. And he didn’t seem to have a shred of inflated ego or anything else that would indicate he had “skipped out on his wife”. Then immediately after the audition, he was on a full run out the door. > > I think you were overly harsh on him (especially with a follow-up post calling him an “asswipe” to boot) and for no discernable good reason. Okay, so… Taking to heart the lessons I’ve learned about hijacking and whatnot, I thought I’d bring the matter here where you and I can fight it out. Afterwards, we can drag our tired and bruised bodies into a bar and have a beer together. But for now… Dude, I just think you’re not qualified to live this guy’s life. I mean _fuck_. His own wife was all smiles and kissy-kissy with him at the hospital where the cameras followed him. In all likelihood, it was she who insisted that he stay. I’m going out on a limb here, but it is entirely possible that she, you know, **loves him**. What with you being a young’un and all, you probably don’t remember the days when the closest husbands ever got to the evacuation of their wife’s womb was a smoke filled waiting room full of men with boxes of cigars constantly glancing at their watches. It’s good that that’s all changed and everything (for most people, anyway) but it is not the case that the only possible freaking way for a man to show his wife love is to be camped out in the delivery room with her. Some wives, believe it or not, don’t even _want_ the bastard there. Maybe she told him that the best way he could show his love is to take advantage of this once-in-a-blue-moon opportunity to go try out for something that could possibly make his family financially secure for the rest of their lives. Maybe they had already discussed this together as a couple for several days, weeks, or even months. Maybe she wanted to express her love for him, at least as much as you want him to express his for her, by insisting that he go. Hell, maybe it was her idea altogether. I mean, I could understand if there had oozed from him any inkling of irresponsibility or disdain for his family other than whatever things you had imagined and concocted in your head. If he had said something like, I don’t know, “Fuck that bitch and her spawn.” Then I could understand your drawing the worst possible conclusion among an infinite number about people **you fucking don’t even know**. I doubt you’ll change your mind because you get stuck in these ruts sometimes and end up digging your heels in even deeper. But man, you’re just wrong wrong wrong. People don’t have to live their lives the way you live yours, or think the way you think, or express love the way you express it to be decent, loving, and happy. Now, surprise me and change your mind about this. Otherwise, get ready for a rumble. Defend your position, but do so without arbitrary bullshit pulled out of your ass and baseless assumptions about this man and his family. Go ahead. I’m waiting. Make my fucking day. [..stern stare…] ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/2 "2007-01-24T13:56:32Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Otherwise, get ready for a rumble. [/QUOTE] I love a good rumble! Woo hoo! 🆒 Wait a second. We’re throwing down about some idiot on American Idol? This is worth getting worked up about? After you resolve this can you guys take sides and argue the merits of those Gieco caveman commercials? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/3 "2007-01-24T13:58:05Z")
He’s a fucking tool. He should be back in the swamp caring for his little creepy crawlies. ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/4 "2007-01-24T14:03:03Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] He’s a fucking tool. He should be back in the swamp caring for his little creepy crawlies. [/QUOTE] I agree. I just wouldn’t take the time to write a long pit thread about it. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/5 "2007-01-24T14:04:00Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Maybe she told him that the best way he could show his love is to take advantage of this once-in-a-blue-moon opportunity to go try out for something that could possibly make his family financially secure for the rest of their lives. Maybe they had already discussed this together as a couple for several days, weeks, or even months. Maybe she wanted to express her love for him, at least as much as you want him to express his for her, by insisting that he go. Hell, maybe it was her idea altogether. [/QUOTE] What I said, but better. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/6 "2007-01-24T14:34:24Z")
Ooooh… Melty. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/7 "2007-01-24T14:50:40Z")
[QUOTE=Slacker] I love a good rumble! Woo hoo! 🆒 Wait a second. We’re throwing down about some idiot on American Idol? This is worth getting worked up about? [/QUOTE] Nah, I think this is just one of the straws. **Dio** has tendency to get worked up and emotional in a vitriolic sort of way about things that other people go meh over. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/8 "2007-01-24T15:05:00Z")
> [@](#): > > What with you being a young’un and all, you probably don’t remember the days when the closest husbands ever got to the evacuation of their wife’s womb was a smoke filled waiting room full of men with boxes of cigars constantly glancing at their watches. It’s good that that’s all changed and everything (for most people, anyway) but it is not the case that the only possible freaking way for a man to show his wife love is to be camped out in the delivery room with her. Some wives, believe it or not, don’t even want the bastard there. No shit! If there’s one particular thing I despise that the natural childbirth movement of the '70s did, it’s that we’ve socially forced men to be in the birthing room. I have no problem with men who WANT to be in the room being there, but _no one_ should be forced to observe a scary, painful, hard to watch process that can get downright gross. I wonder how many first time mothers who insist on having their husbands there know that they’re going to poo on the table. Oh, right, the OP. I don’t watch American Idol. I don’t give a flying hoot about American Idol. But I do know that childbirth is one of the most intensely personal events in a couple’s life, and no one should have the right to tell them how it “should be” done. However they’re happy with it is how it should be done, and it sounds like they were happy. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/9 "2007-01-24T15:51:04Z")
May I be the first to opine: “It’s just a TV show.” Thank you. No applause needed. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/10 "2007-01-24T15:55:23Z")
No point in thinking that the guy’s a jerk unless his wife thinks he’s a jerk, and we’ve seen no evidence that this is the case. As **Liberal** points out, this could well have been a family decision. I doubt the guy is good enough to have a serious shot at winning, but if I thought my husband had serious talent, and could get some good exposure by doing AI, I would tell him to go, and ask my sister to be my birthing coach. ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/11 "2007-01-24T15:58:19Z")
I expected a real fight here, you wanna quit with the hand-holding and post-duel drinking already? I mean, dammit, this is the Pit, act like it. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/12 "2007-01-24T16:34:02Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] No shit! If there’s one particular thing I despise that the natural childbirth movement of the '70s did, it’s that we’ve socially forced men to be in the birthing room. I have no problem with men who WANT to be in the room being there, but _no one_ should be forced to observe a scary, painful, hard to watch process that can get downright gross. I wonder how many first time mothers who insist on having their husbands there know that they’re going to poo on the table. [/quote] I actually do think men should be forced to be in the delivery room. Let them see what they’ve done to that woman. I’ve had to do it twice so I don’t see why anybody else should get a pass. 😛 > [@](#): > > Oh, right, the OP. I don’t watch American Idol. I don’t give a flying hoot about American Idol. But I do know that childbirth is one of the most intensely personal events in a couple’s life, and no one should have the right to tell them how it “should be” done. However they’re happy with it is how it should be done, and it sounds like they were happy. I didn’t say anything about how it should be done. I said the guy should have left the audition line when he heard his wife had gone into labor. I’m still standing by that. It’s not like he had any extraordnary talent. He isn’t going to be in the finals. He’s going to wash out as soon as he gets to Hollywood. So the “once in a lifetime” chance is really just a chance to be on TV for a couple of weeks. It’s just a TV show, though, it’s not like I really care that much. I am naturally hyperbolic. I exaggerate things in a generally jokey tone which doesn’t come through well in a pure text format. Part of the fun of reality shows for me is snarking outrageously on the contestants. I rarely mean any of it very seriously. You should hear some of the stuff that I say to my wife but _don’t_ post on the board. It’s not anything that’s worth it to me to keep arguing bout. I think the guy should have left the line to be with his wife (my own wife thought so too). Others disagree. That’s fine. We can agree to disagree about that. There are more interesting things to fight about. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/13 "2007-01-24T16:44:44Z")
Has your wife stopped beating you yet? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/14 "2007-01-24T16:50:13Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I actually do think men should be forced to be in the delivery room. Let them see what they’ve done to that woman. I’ve had to do it twice so I don’t see why anybody else should get a pass. 😛 [/QUOTE] I sense you’re mostly joking here, but since you’re going to deflate all our fun pitting you anyway, I’ll duke it out for the hijack… “done to that woman”?! Unless you’re advocating rapists be in their victims’ hospital rooms, that’s just bizarre wording. Presumably, she chose to get or to stay pregnant, so, yeah, she has to be there. And if she really wants him there, I guess I can see the marital pressure to be there (I do things that I don’t really want to when they’re important to my husband, too) but it’s the crazy judgementalism from outsiders that chaps my hide. Frankly, my first delivery would have been a lot more pleasant if I hadn’t been worrying about him and if he hadn’t been in the doctor’s way. Then again, much the same could be said about the first couple years of our son’s life until the sperm donor finally left, but I digress… In my most cynical misanthropic moments, I love the (apocryphal?) tale of some unnamed African tribe where the father is seated on the ground outside the birthing hut with a vine tied around his testicles. The vine is then run up over the wall of the hut and tied on the other end to the laboring woman’s wrists. Hilarity ensues when she feels each contraction. But in reality, I just don’t thing you or I have any business telling another couple what their ideal birthing situation is. Should I insist loudly and in public to your wife that she HAS to be there for your vasectomy? Should she see “what she’s done to that man” when he’s made the decision to put himself through something uncomfortable and icky, even if she had a lot to do with that decision making process? Do you HAVE TO reveal yourself to her at that particular very vulnerable time (where you’re not even likely to poop on the table)? Or should it be a decision the two of you make together, and sod all what everyone else thinks? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/15 "2007-01-24T16:53:13Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I mean, I could understand if there had oozed from him any inkling of irresponsibility or disdain for his family other than whatever things you had imagined and concocted in your head. If he had said something like, I don’t know, “Fuck that bitch and her spawn.” Then I could understand your drawing the worst possible conclusion among an infinite number about people **you fucking don’t even know**. [/QUOTE] If there’s one hallmark of this board (and perhaps of the internet in general, and perhaps of humanity in general), it’s that people always assume the worst of everybody else who isn’t there to defend themselves, all while affecting a stance of righteous indignation. This place is full of threads where otherwise rational humans pass judgement and hurl insults and scream bloody murder, despite the fact that they’re about as informed as a stopped clock. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/16 "2007-01-24T16:53:45Z")
I WANTED to be in the delivery room. Nobody made me. It’s called giving a shit. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/17 "2007-01-24T16:58:00Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I said the guy should have left the audition line when he heard his wife had gone into labor. I have friends for whom the first child’s labor lasted 67 minutes and the next labor lasted 54 minutes. Having noted that, I will also note that nearly every other mother whose labor I have heard described has run from a (rare) short four hours to around eight hours to (an excruciating) 23 hours. So, before I decided to tell a guy whose wife was in labor that he had to go dfirectly to his wife, I think it might be a bit relevant how much time he was going to be hanging around an auditorium and how much time did the women in her family spend in labor. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/18 "2007-01-24T17:05:05Z")
[QUOTE=Eonwe] This place is full of threads where otherwise rational humans pass judgement and hurl insults and scream bloody murder, despite the fact that they’re about as informed as a stopped clock. [/QUOTE] Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/19 "2007-01-24T17:10:46Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] He’s a fucking tool. He should be back in the swamp caring for his little creepy crawlies. [/QUOTE] Um… The Geico Caveman is single. He lives in a downtown loft. I think your post says a lot more about you than about cavemen, if you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233/20 "2007-01-24T17:45:38Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] Um… The Geico Caveman is single. He lives in a downtown loft. I think your post says a lot more about you than about cavemen, if you know what I mean. [/QUOTE] Liberal, you’re such a paleonist. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-the-cynic/389233.md?page=2)