# Diogenes, what the hell!? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 4, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991 "2009-12-04T15:58:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/181 "2009-12-06T06:33:56Z")
I, for one, welcome the advent of legalized polygamy. I feel like it will be a real boon to the divorce industry/attorneys-not that they aren’t doing okay now. But it seems like an untapped market with lots of opportunities for growth. Maybe I should have specialised my practice in family law. Also, **mswas** , that stay-at-home babysitter you’re talking about-it’s called an Au Pair or a “nanny”. You don’t need to get married to someone else to score one. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/182 "2009-12-06T06:35:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I see. I thought you might have been talking about me. Since none of that applies to me, I guess you weren’t. If it doesn’t apply, then no, I’m not talking about you. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/183 "2009-12-06T06:52:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’ve never said shit about BDSM and don’t give a fuck about it. **Miller** is making shit up with this one. [Am I really?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9604269&postcount=80) [You sure about that?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7132458&postcount=25) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/184 "2009-12-06T07:06:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Am I really?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9604269&postcount=80) > > [You sure about that?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7132458&postcount=25) Notice how the man has a choice from his perspective but the women are helpless victims? I always love it when misogyny masquerades as care for women. Women aren’t capable of making rational choices only the men are. So the man is ‘taking advantage’ of a mentally ill person. The man has a responsibility to control his compulsion, but the woman has no such responsibility, she’s a weak victim. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/185 "2009-12-06T07:25:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Am I really?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9604269&postcount=80) > > [You sure about that?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7132458&postcount=25) Yes, I’m sure about that. Neither one of those posts has anything to do with BDSM. Nothing in that thread did. It was a thread about a couple who were role-playing a 24 hour “master/slave” game in front of their children. Quit making shit up that I didn’t say. ETA, the second post was from a different thread, but still not about BDSM, but about a guy who tried to force his wife to sign a contract stating that she would be his slave. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/186 "2009-12-06T07:27:08Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Notice how the man has a choice from his perspective but the women are helpless victims? I always love it when misogyny masquerades as care for women. Women aren’t capable of making rational choices only the men are. So the man is ‘taking advantage’ of a mentally ill person. The man has a responsibility to control his compulsion, but the woman has no such responsibility, she’s a weak victim. Read the thread. It didn’t have a fucking thing to do with BDSM. **Miller** is making shit up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/187 "2009-12-06T07:33:14Z")
[This](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0217062contract1.html) is what the second thread was about, and this is what I said a woman would have to be completely fucked up to agree to (which this guy’s wife did NOT, by the way). ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/188 "2009-12-06T07:33:16Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Just wait, another twenty years and you’ll see the fight for equal rights for polygamists. 😉 They’ll be fighting against the mono-normative relationship and the hetero and homo-normative relationships. 😉 It’s ok to question gender roles, but the quantitative notions of coupling, that’s sacrosanct. I can’t believe I agree with **mswas** for a change! 😃 I know a few people with kids from two or three partners, never engaged in a poly-type relationship, but why not? When all the kids and parents get together, don’t worry. They “eye” each other enough. Right now in California, we have a campaign to get a vote put on the next ballot to… wait for it… BAN DIVORCE! [No shit](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/15/john-marcotte-california_n_287796.html). Certainly something this stupid will open doors for the polies. “I cheated on you, we’re having a baby, but I’ll remain married to BOTH of you!” But I DO agree with **Dio**. I really don’t see why he’s hard to agree with. Is it immoral? No. That would only depend what stems from such a relationship. Is it immature? Abso-fucking-lutely. Grown ups using 15 cent words and bogus behavioral studies to behave like kids in a sandbox with active dicks and lubricated vaginas and assholes. It’s almost everybody’s Id-driven sexual fantasy. After a healthy orgasm, then the relationship bullshit commences. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/189 "2009-12-06T10:06:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Quit making shit up that I didn’t say. Links are right there for anyone to read 'em. I’m sure everyone’s up for another rousing round of “ **Dio** explains why what he said isn’t what he said.” ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/190 "2009-12-06T10:39:49Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh now what’s wrong with BDSM? This outta be good. (Let me guess – you had to have been whipped with a belt as a child, right?) If anything, that made it a major turnoff for me. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/191 "2009-12-06T12:30:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Read the thread. It didn’t have a fucking thing to do with BDSM. How the fuck is a 24/7 Master/Slave sexual roleplay relationship NOT about BDSM? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/192 "2009-12-06T15:32:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > How the fuck is a 24/7 Master/Slave sexual roleplay relationship NOT about BDSM? Because we’re back in the **Dio** zone, where all definitions are controlled by **Dio** ’s fiat/whim/whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/193 "2009-12-06T16:26:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Links are right there for anyone to read 'em. And they don’t say what you claim they say, liar. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/194 "2009-12-06T16:28:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > How the fuck is a 24/7 Master/Slave sexual roleplay relationship NOT about BDSM? I thought BDSM was about tying people up and whipping them and shit. In any case, my posts in that thread didn’t have anything to do with the sexual kinks, but with the fact that they were doing it in front of their kids. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/195 "2009-12-06T16:29:04Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The people who always find some sort of reason to disapprove of some lifestyle or other, casting a broad net that may or may not apply. Judging a hippy triad happily living on a small farm in Oregon by the same standards you judge FLDS. It’s no more sensible than judging homosexuals by their orientation. > > It’s just interesting, so open-minded and multi-cultural when it’s homos (gentrified suspect group) but the true colors of bigotry come out when it’s a group you don’t approve of, polyamorists. Disapproval and skepticism do not equal bigotry. Societies function best when there are proscribed rules and conventions for behavior. “Anything goes” is a great concept in theory, but reality is not as simple. Homosexuality is no threat to the nuclear family as I see it. Polyamory can be. It’s a given that heterosexual, monogamous couples struggle with relational dynamics and life in general. Adding yet another “layer” of dynamics, interpersonal power struggles, time constraints and work pressures to this does not seem the way to bliss and happiness to me. Obviously it works for some–I’d hazard to say a very small percentage. I highly doubt that these utopian poly relationships described here are the norm. Knowing human nature as I do, I’d say there’s more than a good chance that there is jealousy, triangulation and power struggles amongst the trio frequently. Or are they super human? I’m not saying it couldn’t happen (there are many solid, happy hetero, mono marriages afterall), I’m just a bit dubious of this being the a way of relating that needs mainstream acceptance. No doubt you find that statement bigoted. I can live with that. > [@](#): > > So really it’s not different from Christian Evangelicals, except as to where you decide to draw the line arbitrarily. You’re still trying to tell other people who they should love and how they should love. If they don’t obey they face social ostracism. “Don’t bring your two wives to my party.”, is no different from, “Don’t bring your boyfriend to my party.”, in the end it’s the same, you are setting yourself up as the judge of someone else’s relationship. Well, yes, I am setting myself up as the judge of someone else’s relationship. I make judgments every day about people. The difference is that I do not condemn them as lesser beings or evil influences: I have real, concrete doubts as to the practical and pragmatic benefits of such an arrangement. For myself, my thoughts on the matter have nothing in common with CEs–a group that condemns homosexuals to hell, and just might see the “worth” of polyamory. Afterall, CEs are not known for their advocacy of women on any level. I could see them more likely to support poly than homo any day. YMMV. > [@](#): > > ‘Someone is always left out.’, yea, well, that happens in heteronormative relationships too. Welcome to the world, where most people are lonely. Choose your poison: be lonely alone; be lonely within a mono relationship or be lonely within a poly. None of these appeal to me. Again, YMMV. > [@](#): > > It’s just interesting the beating heart of bigotry that lurks beneath the veneer of liberal open-mindedness on this forum. So much hate, I see so much hate here, for the religious, for the polyamorists, for anyone who doesn’t conform to your notion of normative. But you tell yourself you’re more enlightened because black, jewish, and homosexual fall within the rubric of normative for you. So much for open minds. Why does this only work one way? I don’t see you as enlightened at all here. I see you as thoroughly enjoying some righteous indignation. You are neither hetero or poly (IMS me), so what’s it to you? Some here support poly relations; some don’t. So far there are no calls for tar or feathers or of banishing this practice from our midst. The most extreme reaction seems to come from you. 😕 Who hates here, in this thread? Who has said that polys are bad, evil people who need to be eradicated and the practice stamped out? IMO, you confuse tolerance and approval to neither concept’s benefit. > [@](#): > > Just wait, another twenty years and you’ll see the fight for equal rights for polygamists. 😉 They’ll be fighting against the mono-normative relationship and the hetero and homo-normative relationships. 😉 It’s ok to question gender roles, but the quantitative notions of coupling, that’s sacrosanct. I think that wait is over–it’s happening here and now, on a fairly mainstream message board. For me, UNLIKE homosexual relationships/marriages, poly does undermine the basic tenet of our society(the nuclear and extended family) to some extent. I am of 2 minds about this: 1. family can be defined as a group of people who come together to help one another, and given that, polys, monos, and all other permutations fit and could work; and 2. #1 is hopelessly idealistic and romantic a notion and doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of working. Perhaps somewhere between the 2 is where things will fall out. Let me be clear here: I do think that those who practice poly are bad or evil. IF it works for them, so be it. But my if is a large one and it is not a way of life that I’d like to see more widespread or accepted. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/196 "2009-12-06T16:29:14Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > If anything, that made it a major turnoff for me. 'ere now, you had a belt? We had to make do with a rusty bike chain, and darn glad to have it… ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/197 "2009-12-06T16:56:53Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Disapproval and skepticism do not equal bigotry. Societies function best when there are proscribed rules and conventions for behavior. “Anything goes” is a great concept in theory, but reality is not as simple. Sure, a very sensible argument as to why marriage should be between a man and a woman. > [@](#): > > Homosexuality is no threat to the nuclear family as I see it. Polyamory can be. Both are a threat to the traditional nuclear family as they both deviate from the accepted norm. > [@](#): > > It’s a given that heterosexual, monogamous couples struggle with relational dynamics and life in general. Adding yet another “layer” of dynamics, interpersonal power struggles, time constraints and work pressures to this does not seem the way to bliss and happiness to me. Obviously it works for some–I’d hazard to say a very small percentage. I highly doubt that these utopian poly relationships described here are the norm. Knowing human nature as I do, I’d say there’s more than a good chance that there is jealousy, triangulation and power struggles amongst the trio frequently. Or are they super human? I’m not saying it couldn’t happen (there are many solid, happy hetero, mono marriages afterall), I’m just a bit dubious of this being the a way of relating that needs mainstream acceptance. No doubt you find that statement bigoted. I can live with that. And perhaps two people who would fight all the time are consoled by a third peacemaker that makes the union whole? Who’s to say? So if you are going to deviate from accepted norms your relationship has to be ‘utopian’ to be socially valid? Knowing human nature as I do, sometimes adding a third person to the mix changes the dynamics and takes the pressure off of two people. I’m just saying that if someone comes with both their wives or both their husbands to your party, why make a fuss if they aren’t making a fuss? You’re assuming drama, but it seems to me that the people who are the most scandalized by it are more than willing to supply the drama themselves. > [@](#): > > Well, yes, I am setting myself up as the judge of someone else’s relationship. I make judgments every day about people. The difference is that I do not condemn them as lesser beings or evil influences: I have real, concrete doubts as to the practical and pragmatic benefits of such an arrangement. _shrugs_ And I have doubts about the practicality of expecting everyone to find monogamous coupling to be satisfactory, based on the fact that so many people don’t find it satisfactory. > [@](#): > > For myself, my thoughts on the matter have nothing in common with CEs–a group that condemns homosexuals to hell, and just might see the “worth” of polyamory. Afterall, CEs are not known for their advocacy of women on any level. I could see them more likely to support poly than homo any day. YMMV. Oh, I see, so if you say they’ll go to an imaginary fairyland of eternal torment it’s worse to ostracize them in the here and now than if you don’t imagine a fairyland of eternal torment? > [@](#): > > Welcome to the world, where most people are lonely. Choose your poison: be lonely alone; be lonely within a mono relationship or be lonely within a poly. None of these appeal to me. Again, YMMV. All the lonely people, where do they all belong? > [@](#): > > So much for open minds. Why does this only work one way? I don’t see you as enlightened at all here. I see you as thoroughly enjoying some righteous indignation. You are neither hetero or poly (IMS me), so what’s it to you? Some here support poly relations; some don’t. So far there are no calls for tar or feathers or of banishing this practice from our midst. The most extreme reaction seems to come from you. 😕 Who hates here, in this thread? Who has said that polys are bad, evil people who need to be eradicated and the practice stamped out? IMO, you confuse tolerance and approval to neither concept’s benefit. I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy. But there’s one major difference. I think egalitarianism is utter nonsense. People are not equal, and should not be treated as such. This is why I support homosexual relationships or polyamorous relationships. So you won’t hear me ever coming to the defense of multiculturalism for its own sake, you won’t hear me talking about equality or fairness in such debates. You might hear me talking about the right of self-determination, but that’s different. > [@](#): > > I think that wait is over–it’s happening here and now, on a fairly mainstream message board. For me, UNLIKE homosexual relationships/marriages, poly does undermine the basic tenet of our society(the nuclear and extended family) to some extent. I don’t see how it’s unlike homosexual relationships. Homosexual relationships undermine the basic tenet of a one-man one-woman relationship. And for the most part for there to be kids in a homosexual relationship, they in most cases come from a prior heterosexual relationship that was abandoned for the homosexual one. So all of those poly dynamics are still at work on some level. Just as hetero divorce has undermined the nuclear family. > [@](#): > > I am of 2 minds about this: 1. family can be defined as a group of people who come together to help one another, and given that, polys, monos, and all other permutations fit and could work; and 2. #1 is hopelessly idealistic and romantic a notion and doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of working. Perhaps somewhere between the 2 is where things will fall out. But sometimes it does work. > [@](#): > > Let me be clear here: I do think that those who practice poly are bad or evil. IF it works for them, so be it. But my if is a large one and it is not a way of life that I’d like to see more widespread or accepted. Can they bring their WHOLE family to your BBQ? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/198 "2009-12-06T16:57:51Z")
It’s not a family. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/199 "2009-12-06T17:03:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s not a family. Yeah, that’s how I feel about the homos too. They think they should be able to bring their fuckbuddy to my family affair. It’s disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/200 "2009-12-06T17:57:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > 'ere now, you had a belt? We had to make do with a rusty bike chain, and darn glad to have it… Oooh, a _chain_! Make way for the Duke of Wellington! We’d naught but a pile of rusty links, had to heat them in the blacksmith’s forge and roll about upon them with our bare backs… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991.md?page=11)