# Diogenes, what the hell!? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 4, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991 "2009-12-04T15:58:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/61 "2009-12-04T21:04:49Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Why do you qualify your statement with “sex-related topics”? It’s the same pattern every single time regardless of the topic. > > Stranger True, though anything related to sex or children brings it out even more. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/62 "2009-12-04T21:06:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I just love this. Person X is disgusted by Y. Person Z is disgusted by people who are disgusted by Y. Both think their opinion is valid. Yet, the same reasoning that makes one valid makes the other valid. > > I have a bunch of beliefs that would get me in a lot of trouble on this board. I tend not to share them. I see this board for what it is: a place where certain beliefs are allowed to be different, but others aren’t. (i.e. liberal). > > So enjoy arguing that Dio is such a horrible person because he dares challenge the belief that polyamory is normal. All you are doing is judging someone for what they believe–which is the same thing he is doing. Congratulations on calling yourself a bigot. Yeah, except no. Maybe this is one of those beliefs you should have kept to yourself (i.e. stupid). ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/63 "2009-12-04T21:10:31Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I just love this. Person X is disgusted by Y. Person Z is disgusted by people who are disgusted by Y. Both think their opinion is valid. Yet, the same reasoning that makes one valid makes the other valid. > > I have a bunch of beliefs that would get me in a lot of trouble on this board. I tend not to share them. I see this board for what it is: a place where certain beliefs are allowed to be different, but others aren’t. (i.e. liberal). > > So enjoy arguing that Dio is such a horrible person because he dares challenge the belief that polyamory is normal. All you are doing is judging someone for what they believe–which is the same thing he is doing. Congratulations on calling yourself a bigot. Congratulations, you’ve reinvented the “you’re intolerant of intolerance!” argument. This is the same whining that every bigoted person uses these days. It doesn’t hold logical water for any number of reasons, not the least of which is that no one’s accused Dio of being inferior, somehow less, invalid, or ridiculous–just that he’s plain old wrong–and regardless of whether he’s wrong or not, he’s still a valid human being with valid thoughts and valid relationships. ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/64 "2009-12-04T21:57:25Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’m, in turn, fully comfortable with telling you to butt your pretty little head out of both my marriage vows and my feelings on the interconnectedness of sex and marriage. Public forum, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/65 "2009-12-04T22:41:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > … I’m not sure how the 'mos got an exception to this policy. Perhaps because its not so much a judgement as a preference? I don’t like porn, for instance, I believe the kids say it “squicks” me. I assume other people do, because there is a lot of it, so somebody must. Not the kind of thing I generally ask people, like, hey, what kind of porn do you like, you deev. But my personal revulsion is just that, personal. There is no way on God’s green that I would support making my revulsion a legal standard. I know the difference between “my beeswax” and “not my beeswax.” I don’t have to like what anybody else does, I’m only obliged not to interfere. Freak freely. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/66 "2009-12-04T22:49:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I just love this. Person X is disgusted by Y. Person Z is disgusted by people who are disgusted by Y. Both think their opinion is valid. Yet, the same reasoning that makes one valid makes the other valid. > > I have a bunch of beliefs that would get me in a lot of trouble on this board. I tend not to share them. I see this board for what it is: a place where certain beliefs are allowed to be different, but others aren’t. (i.e. liberal). > > So enjoy arguing that Dio is such a horrible person because he dares challenge the belief that polyamory is normal. All you are doing is judging someone for what they believe–which is the same thing he is doing. Congratulations on calling yourself a bigot. **Big T** , no. My issue isn’t with people who disagree. It’s with people who disagree in a completely offensive and disrespectful way. **Dio** may have some useful insights, but his delivery sucks. As I stated in the thread on this topic, polyamory is tricky. From what I have seen, it’s not objectively any different than any other romantic relationship (in the sense that there if friendship and companionship and sexual relations), except you have difficult dynamics on account of their being more than two people involved. I think the relationships are more prone to instability due to their nature. My best friend’s parents were polyamorous. When she was young, her Dad and Mom invited another woman, She, to live with them. It worked for a year or two, but then the jealousies began to crop up. Dad divorced Mom and married She when my friend was about 12. All hell broke lose, and it took a while for things to stabilize. Now Dad is happily married with She decades later and Mom has been committed to the same guy ever since, but she remains polyamorous. For a kid, a truly fucked up situation. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/67 "2009-12-04T23:15:18Z")
An online friend of mine from another MB is in a long-term poly relationship, her and two guys. They have four children together, and can only guess based on appearances as to which man is the bio dad of each. It’s certainly strange to me, but it seems to work just fine for them. ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/68 "2009-12-04T23:16:34Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > From what I have seen, it’s not objectively any different than any other romantic relationship (in the sense that there if friendship and companionship and sexual relations), except you have difficult dynamics on account of their being more than two people involved. I think the relationships are more prone to instability due to their nature. I certainly don’t disagree with this. I was around something similar to your friend’s experience, though a bit less traumatic, at around the same age… my parents met this guy I’ll call T and decided to try being together with him for a year. He and my father didn’t get along very well, and there were times I wasn’t sure my parents would stay together, in fact for a while I didn’t get to see my dad at all & that was very difficult. When the year was up T left and everything settled down again, much to my relief. I never liked T so if things had turned out differently I would have fought and pleaded to stay with my father. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/69 "2009-12-04T23:21:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > … > But my personal revulsion is just that, personal. There is no way on God’s green that I would support making my revulsion a legal standard. I know the difference between “my beeswax” and “not my beeswax.” I don’t have to like what anybody else does, I’m only obliged not to interfere. Freak freely. Things would be so much better all around, if more people had your “live and let live” attitude. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/70 "2009-12-04T23:21:59Z")
> [@](#): > > …For a kid, a truly fucked up situation. The kids? Things for the kids, in my experience, work out bad or good dependent entirely on the good will and good sense of whomsoever is parenting. I know nuclear families that are tight stable bundles of shared misery, and thermonuclear families that are spread out all over the place and abound in affectionate support. People tend to be tormented by the fantasies, they imagine they would be happy if only this were true or that over there, were true. And in no other arena so much as the sexual. What you got is ordinary, what you cannot have is magical. Sexual openness is a marvelous cure for that. When you find out that what you craved so cravenly is really just the same old same old, it can be very depressing, momentarily. But in the longer run, very liberating. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/71 "2009-12-05T00:28:21Z")
See it’s a slippery slope, if you give the homos license to corrupt our children, next the polyamorists will want to do it. Won’t somebody think of the children? \* \*Besides pedophiles I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/72 "2009-12-05T01:05:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The kids? Things for the kids, in my experience, work out bad or good dependent entirely on the good will and good sense of whomsoever is parenting. I know nuclear families that are tight stable bundles of shared misery, and thermonuclear families that are spread out all over the place and abound in affectionate support. Which kind of raises another question for me. How is what happened to my friend any more traumatic than what happens when any couple divorces in a nasty, conflicted way? My friend had the unconditional love of both of her parents, and though it was a tough year or two, she turned out just fine. In fact, she’s one of the most mentally stable people I know. See, I am really torn on this point. It seems like a risky thing to put a kid through, but if you’re going to call it immature and irresponsible, you might as well do the same for all people who divorce, because they should have been more committed, or something. General you. ETA: Question for **Dio** : Have you ever, in the history of posting here, been convinced by the counter-argument of any person, ever? I’m just trying to determine if there’s hope. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/73 "2009-12-05T01:43:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Not really, at least as far as **Dio** is concerned. When it comes to anything sex related, his default position tends to be, “Since I’m not interested in it, anyone who is interested in it is either emotionally stunted, mentally ill, or both.” He’s so judgmental about this sort of thing that Jerry Falwell looks at him and says, “I think that’s going a little too far.” I’m kind of astonished that he’s so pro-gay rights, since in any other area of human sexuality, his standard for propriety is literally no more nuanced than “Like me/Not like me.” I’m not sure how the 'mos got an exception to this policy. Sounds like he might have some desires he hasn’t shared with us yet. ---
**Author:** ![dragoncat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@dragoncat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dragoncat)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/74 "2009-12-05T02:21:04Z")
‘K, I’m a newbie, but I’m kind of confused about Diogenes. I mean, I can look up Diogenes on Wikipedia just like anyone else. I don’t see why someone who thinks going outside the norm is immoral and immature, would call themselves Diogenes. Just askin’. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/75 "2009-12-05T02:31:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > …People tend to be tormented by the fantasies, they imagine they would be happy if only this were true or that over there, were true. And in no other arena so much as the sexual. What you got is ordinary, what you cannot have is magical. Sexual openness is a marvelous cure for that. **When you find out that what you craved so cravenly is really just the same old same old, it can be very depressing, momentarily**. But in the longer run, very liberating. – bolding mine. Not necessarily. For taking your fantasies into reality can/may bring wonderful results – if nothing else you’ll certainly have many a question answered which, otherwise, might haunt you till you die. Of course, the level of maturity with which you approach any given fantasy plays a huge role in its outcome. Meaning that all involved have to be cognizant of the more than possible emotional turmoil that will ensue. That said, I heartly agree with your conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/76 "2009-12-05T02:52:10Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > ETA: Question for **Dio** : Have you ever, in the history of posting here, been convinced by the counter-argument of any person, ever? I’m just trying to determine if there’s hope. I don’t see the relevance. I doubt you’ve made many serious changes in your belief system as a result of discussions on the SDMB. And you are making the assumption that he is wrong and his view needs to change. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/77 "2009-12-05T03:10:06Z")
Reality Check. There must be plenty of us who find comfort in the sustained espression of love between their grandparents or at least have fond memories of such. Anyone else have those fond memories or current positive comfort with polyamorous grand parents? My sense is that it is highly unlikely unless religion is involved, Islam or Mormon offshoots. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/78 "2009-12-05T03:13:20Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Reality Check. > > There must be plenty of us who find comfort in the sustained espression of love between their grandparents or at least have fond memories of such. Anyone else have those fond memories or current positive comfort with polyamorous grand parents? > > My sense is that it is highly unlikely unless religion is involved, Islam or Mormon offshoots. True answer–I know people who do. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/79 "2009-12-05T03:31:53Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Reality Check. > > There must be plenty of us who find comfort in the sustained espression of love between their grandparents or at least have fond memories of such. Anyone else have those fond memories or current positive comfort with polyamorous grand parents? > > My sense is that it is highly unlikely unless religion is involved, Islam or Mormon offshoots. WTF does that have to do with the discussion at hand? I never had the chance to know either of my Grandfathers – both died in the Spanish Civil War – and only knew my Grandmas as a child. Was fond of the former through stories relayed by my parents and uncles/ants, loved the latter due to my relationship with them. What they did (or didn’t) do in bed has jack-shit to do with my feelings. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/80 "2009-12-05T03:34:41Z")
Certainly your father would have to be considered a seminal influence… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991.md?page=5)