# Diogenes, what the hell!? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 4, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991 "2009-12-04T15:58:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/161 "2009-12-06T01:59:21Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Point out a non religous poly relationship lasting over 20 years and I’ll give you a point. [William Moulton Marston](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Moulton_Marston#Early_life_and_career) was a psychologist and feminist, as was his wife [Elizabeth Holloway Marston](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Holloway_Marston). They were involved in a long term polyamorous relationship with Olive Byrne, and the triad had four children - the two born to Byrne being legally adopted by the Marstons. Elizabeth continued to work even after having children, which was almost unheard of for its day, and both Marstons were prominent in the early feminist movement. William had a position as scientific adviser to the feminist magazine _Family Circle_. In his writings, he suggested that women were naturally more intelligent than men, and that matriarchy was the inevitable (and desirable) future of the United States. William and Elizabeth were married for thirty two years. Their relationship with Olive started in the '20s, and persisted until William’s death in 1947, after which Elizabeth and Olive continued in a relationship until the latter’s death in the '80s. Elizabeth herself died at the age of 100 in 1993. William Marston is credited with the invention of the polygraph and (with Elizabeth’s help) the the systolic blood pressure test, but he is most famous for the creation of comic book superhero Wonder Woman. Oh, and just to tie in another of **Diogenes** ’ bugaboos, not only were the three of them polyamorists, they were also highly involved in the BDSM lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/162 "2009-12-06T02:43:07Z")
Oh now what’s wrong with BDSM? This outta be good. (Let me guess – you had to have been whipped with a belt as a child, right?) ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/163 "2009-12-06T02:49:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > More than likely it is. Monogamy is rare among mammals, and nonexistent in our closest relatives, the great apes. Our sexual dimorphism is a strong indicator that we are not “naturally” monogamous. Actually, our level of sexual dimorphism is far smaller than what would be expected for a species our size. We are a species that has evolved towards monogamous relationships and most individuals have historically been married monogamously. Polygamous relationships have typically occurred in cultures where there is great wealth disparity between individuals and is often associated with reduced rights for women. This doesn’t mean that all individuals who currently practice such relationships hold such beliefs, but its better for society in general to have more individuals married monogamously than polygamously. ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/164 "2009-12-06T04:21:04Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh now what’s wrong with BDSM? This outta be good. (Let me guess – you had to have been whipped with a belt as a child, right?) Isn’t it obvious?? I mean, anyone who could _possibly_ enjoy that is a) immoral, b) a victim of abuse, c) delusional, or d) emotionally stunted to the point that they are incapable of making a decision. I mean, my god, it’s just … _unnatural!_ Surely you can see that. Or were YOU perhaps abused as a child? Come on. You can tell us. > [@kimera](#): > > Actually, our level of sexual dimorphism is far smaller than what would be expected for a species our size. We are a species that has evolved towards monogamous relationships and most individuals have historically been married monogamously. Polygamous relationships have typically occurred in cultures where there is great wealth disparity between individuals and is often associated with reduced rights for women. This doesn’t mean that all individuals who currently practice such relationships hold such beliefs, but its better for society in general to have more individuals married monogamously than polygamously. See, you come in here spouting all sorts of stuff that sounds legit, and then you go off the rails with your subjective value judgement at the last minute. It’s “better for society?” How the fuck can you possibly know that? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/165 "2009-12-06T04:31:26Z")
[**Facts and Statistics About Infidelity**](http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/quizzes/public/infidelity_statistics.html) > [@](#): > > **It is estimated that roughly 30 to 60% of all married individuals (in the United States) will engage in infidelity at some point during their marriage (see, Buss and Shackelford for review of this research). And these numbers are probably on the conservative side, when you consider that close to half of all marriages end in divorce…** Yeah. Monogamy is here to stay. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/166 "2009-12-06T04:47:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So what happens if the poly is carrying a legally-registered handgun? Is he/she in favour of UHC?? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/167 "2009-12-06T05:05:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What scientific evidence is there that there is a monogamous orientation? None. I’m not the one asserting there is such a thing as mono and poly orientations. I’m saying that’s horseshit. > [@](#): > > Most societies that have existed have had polyamorous relationships. The idea that monogamy is the norm is a relatively recent invention. Most societies have have only had a polyamorous option for men. Women have historically been chattel. These are not organic, healthy bonding relationships you’re talking about, just multiple women being owned and/or used for sex by men. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/168 "2009-12-06T05:09:11Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > And do you have any evidence for this beyond your own imagination? I need evidence for my opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/169 "2009-12-06T05:19:10Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh now what’s wrong with BDSM? This outta be good. (Let me guess – you had to have been whipped with a belt as a child, right?) I’ve never said shit about BDSM and don’t give a fuck about it. **Miller** is making shit up with this one. For the record, I also don’t give a fuck about polyamory. The other thread asked about what people would be willing to accept in their _homes_. If somebody wants to practice bondage, I don’t give a shit. I just don’t want them wearing leather and ball gags if they come over to my house. Same with this polyamory garbage. Do whatever you want, but keep the role playing, and the cooing an the petting out of my home. I’m also under no obligation to take it seriously, or revere it as a real relationship. I’ve said over and over again in every one of these threads that I don’t want to stop anybody from doing anything, but I’m still perfectly entitled to roll my eyes at them ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/170 "2009-12-06T05:23:36Z")
> [@Turek](#): > > Isn’t it obvious?? I mean, anyone who could _possibly_ enjoy that is a) immoral, b) a victim of abuse, c) delusional, or d) emotionally stunted to the point that they are incapable of making a decision. I mean, my god, it’s just … _unnatural!_ Surely you can see that. Or were YOU perhaps abused as a child? Come on. You can tell us. Could you please confine your approbation and sarcasm to things I’ve actually said? I don’t think I’ve ever even commented on BDSM. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/171 "2009-12-06T05:26:03Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > What Dio comes down to is: “Nobody should be allowed to judge anyone, except when it comes to people I don’t like.” I’ve never said people shouldn’t judge. Just the opposite. I’m a big proponent of judging others. It’s only legislating against them that I object to. Why do people keep making up shit that I never said? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/172 "2009-12-06T05:50:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I need evidence for my opinion? Well, no, but if you have no evidence for it, and you are presented evidence against it, it’s rather illogical to hold the position, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/173 "2009-12-06T05:55:45Z")
I haven’t been provided with evidence against it. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/174 "2009-12-06T06:03:17Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Point out a non religous poly relationship lasting over 20 years and I’ll give you a point. > > Keep in mind that women who have lost their sexual marketability after childbirth are somewhat coerced to accept a third partner in the “marriage” . I know two groups personally who meet your criteria, and I know one poly group personally that have “divorced” once they’ve made a commitment equivalent to marriage (from their pov, with vows etc). I know several poly couples who have been together from 5-15 years who have not found a second permanent person but who have enjoyed the occasional medium- or long-term relationship (that just didn’t lead to a full commitment for whatever reason, just like real dating) while maintaining their primary marriage. Anecdotes aren’t data, etc. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/175 "2009-12-06T06:03:33Z")
I don’t really have any feelings towards polyamory one way or the other but I more or less feel that the best evidence for the “group marriage is unstable” argument (since people asked for a poly-specific instance) is the experience of the Oneida community-which was basically just one gigantic experiment in polyamory. Ooh, and they even had constructive criticism, which I find hilarious, but that’s neither here nor there. Anyway, Sarah Vowell basically outlines what happened to the Oneida community in Assasination Vacation. Basically people paired off in couples and settled into a life of monogamy. The community disbanded. Also for the love of gods, are people still throwing around historical polygyny as a reason for why modern “polyamory” (which is basically just swinging with dragons and Eau du Ren Faire) is the norm? That is just hilarious on so many levels. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/176 "2009-12-06T06:04:50Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I would like to think that all the people involved are adults and capable of making their own decisions and living with those consequences (whatever they may be–good and bad), but relationships are complex and not always straightforward. This is the reason why your position is one I can live with, and the absence of this sense is the reason why I find it difficult to live with **Dio** ’s. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/177 "2009-12-06T06:13:12Z")
It’s interesting how disturbing the notion of personal choice and personal freedom is found by some people. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/178 "2009-12-06T06:15:35Z")
Which people? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/179 "2009-12-06T06:23:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Which people? The people who always find some sort of reason to disapprove of some lifestyle or other, casting a broad net that may or may not apply. Judging a hippy triad happily living on a small farm in Oregon by the same standards you judge FLDS. It’s no more sensible than judging homosexuals by their orientation. It’s just interesting, so open-minded and multi-cultural when it’s homos (gentrified suspect group) but the true colors of bigotry come out when it’s a group you don’t approve of, polyamorists. So really it’s not different from Christian Evangelicals, except as to where you decide to draw the line arbitrarily. You’re still trying to tell other people who they should love and how they should love. If they don’t obey they face social ostracism. “Don’t bring your two wives to my party.”, is no different from, “Don’t bring your boyfriend to my party.”, in the end it’s the same, you are setting yourself up as the judge of someone else’s relationship. It’s not diseased or distressed relationships you care about it’s ALL polyamorous relationships. You use the fact that you have heard many anecdotes on the straight dope as a justification for your moral judgment of people you don’t even know based off of a life choice that they make. Same as homophobes. Who are you to say the make-up of someone’s love life? ‘Someone is always left out.’, yea, well, that happens in heteronormative relationships too. It’s just interesting the beating heart of bigotry that lurks beneath the veneer of liberal open-mindedness on this forum. So much hate, I see so much hate here, for the religious, for the polyamorists, for anyone who doesn’t conform to your notion of normative. But you tell yourself you’re more enlightened because black, jewish, and homosexual fall within the rubric of normative for you. Just wait, another twenty years and you’ll see the fight for equal rights for polygamists. 😉 They’ll be fighting against the mono-normative relationship and the hetero and homo-normative relationships. 😉 It’s ok to question gender roles, but the quantitative notions of coupling, that’s sacrosanct. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991/180 "2009-12-06T06:30:13Z")
I see. I thought you might have been talking about me. Since none of that applies to me, I guess you weren’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diogenes-what-the-hell/519991.md?page=10)