# Diplomacy: SDMB's entry in the WorldMasters 2002 Tourney **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 5, 2002, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323 "2002-11-05T05:12:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/1 "2002-11-05T05:12:36Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **RTFirefly** [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2566558#post2566558)_ > A few thoughts about the WorldMasters tourney: > > 1. We probably ought to start a separate thread for discussing it. Since this one’s already on page 13, we ought to let this thread die out when Dip 1040 and Dip 1046 do, to save wear and tear on the hamsters. > > 2. Anyone asked **Dewey Cheatem Undhow** if he’d like to be an alternate? He was a pretty strong player in Dip 934. Also, if **Steve Enzor** was interested in throwing his lot in with us, he’s done a good job of resurrecting Russia after **Maeglin** left it in disarray (_in 1040 -ed._), and would be a decent alternate. > > 3. On the assignment of countries: > a) **Dave** , where are we? Have the players all given country preferences to you yet? > b) Since we’re all on the same side, and playing in different games, rather than all playing in one game against each other, I think whatever process we use to decide on countries should be (i) out in the open, and (ii) accompanied by a reasonable amount of discussion to make sure we get a good fit between players and countries. > > I personally suggest we use my spreadsheet to come up with its maximized matchings, preferencewise, between players and countries, but then open the floor up for discussion to make sure it’s given everyone a country they wouldn’t mind playing in tough competition, and switch things around as much as necessary so that everyone’s happy. > > Any thoughts? Or should we save further discussion for a new thread? I agree strongly with everything **RT** ’s just said. As I said in my email to Dave about my particular country preferences, I’ll pretty much take anything (except England and Turkey 😉 ), but it’s certainly true that there are some countries I’d be more comfortable with, and even some that I’ve never played. Those are probably better left to the experts. In any case, those were the preferences that I sent in to Dave: an equal preference for AFGIR. And I’ve never played France or Russia, which are two Powers that I think we’d expect to see a good result from for our team, so it might be best to give me one of the central Powers (I’m playing Austria for the first time right now and I love it!). That’s not to say, of course, that I wouldn’t take one of the ‘powerhouses of the periphery’ if it was asked of me. But that’s enough about me. I wrote to **Dewey Cheatem Undhow** when 1040 was starting up and he said he didn’t have time to play then (that was in August), but I haven’t heard from him since then. Any other opinions about country assignments, alternates, or anything else? I figure this thread can stick around and serve for discussion of these issues, updates, and maybe even strategy talk once the tourney starts up. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/2 "2002-11-05T14:36:55Z")
Just a quick word. I have played in the World Masters two or three times, and every time it has been a serious disappointment. The quality of play is not high, and worse, the game administration is extremely inconsistent. Expect arbitrary GMs and players who cannot communicate effectively in English. ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Babe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/3 "2002-11-05T15:26:11Z")
OG STAB ALLY! I think RT’s mathamajigger is the way to go. Perhaps we should allow unlimited wheeling and dealing after the country assignments. Part of the delay might be my fault in not getting my preferences to Dave. If you want to give me England as punishment, that’s ok. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/4 "2002-11-05T16:21:15Z")
I’ll check today about the country preferences, I’ve been lax, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/5 "2002-11-05T16:40:51Z")
While I gave Dave a full set of country preferences, here’s how mine break down: Peripheral Powers: I’m comfortable with France and England, but not with Russia and Turkey. Central Powers: I’d rather play Germany or Austria than Italy. And amongst the two peripheral powers and two central powers that I don’t mind playing, I’m pretty flexible. If there’s a country among those four that nobody else really wants to play, I’ll play it. Once this thing actually begins, I presume there’s no reason why we can’t offer each other advice on tactics and stuff, if we keep an eye on each other’s games. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/6 "2002-11-05T17:29:17Z")
I still need Omniscient’s selections. I may have lost them, if so, I apologise, could you send them again? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/7 "2002-11-05T17:32:46Z")
Everyone seems to be getting their 1st or 2nd preferences so far. Someone told me they liked playing Austria, but I don’t remember who. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/8 "2002-11-05T17:42:30Z")
**White Lightning** has mentioned a preference for Austria. And you might check what **Abe Babe** sent you; he certainly has done well with Austria in 1040. ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Babe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/9 "2002-11-05T17:50:10Z")
Russia and Germany were my first two choices. Germany, because I haven’t played it before in recent history, and Russia just 'cause it’s a cool country to play. Austria is a lot of fun too, if you can avoid the Russia, Turkey, Italy dogpile. Last choices were Italy and Turkey. ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/10 "2002-11-05T21:45:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \*\*Abe Babe \*\*\* > Last choices were Italy and Turkey. I imagine the problem will be finding people to play these two Powers. I was afraid that I’d get stuck in Italy by not rejecting it in my preferences, but didn’t want to be too selfish. Like I told Dave, I’ll take whatever’s left over (aside from ET) after everybody else chooses. In any case I’ve been thinking of some ideas to try and make Italy work. I think I’ve been learning a lot lately (believe it or not, I think my pathetic showing in 1040 was a good experience for me), and I’m eager to put it into action. **Maeglin** raised a good point that had totally escaped my attention, though. With all these international teams from non-English speaking countries, what happens when you can’t communicate with the other players? I also think we should share ideas with each other and keep an eye on all our games. You guys may not want my advice, but I _definitely_ want yours. As long as no one else in the tourney happens to read the board and eavesdrop on our planning. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/11 "2002-11-05T21:53:12Z")
We could exchange thoughts on strategy and tactics by email. Not _everything_ has to be posted. 😉 I don’t think finding a Turkish player will be a problem; 1040 notwithstanding, Turkey usually manages to get out of its corner, and once it does, it usually does pretty well. I know **Bluesman** has had success with Turkey in the past. As far as Italy goes, I don’t know. I did OK with Italy in my one PBEM game with that country, but I still don’t have much of a feel for how to play it. But if no one else particularly wanted Italy, I’d play it. I’m not sure what to do about the language barrier, other than hope it doesn’t have much effect on our games. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2002, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/12 "2002-11-05T22:06:20Z")
Bluesman requested Turkey as his 1st choice, so no problem there. Italy is the one thats toughest right now. Preliminary assignments so far: Bluesman: Turkey RT: England ( the only one that had it in his top 3 ) WL: Austria Abe:Germany ( Ditto ) I’ll take Italy myself if I have to, although I’d prefer Russia ( which I’ve played the most ) or France ( Which I haven’t ever played ). ---
**Author:** ![Bluesman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@Bluesman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bluesman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/13 "2002-11-06T00:13:10Z")
AWESOME! I don’t know why Turkey is so unpopular. I LOVE their position and prospects. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/14 "2002-11-06T00:55:38Z")
It’s start up safe, at least. The tournament is conducted in England (theoretically). You will be playing with international players with varying command of English, though. Think of it as a challenge to your communications skills. ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/15 "2002-11-06T02:19:50Z")
Turkey depresses me because it seems like you almost always have to use your fleet to bounce the Black for the entirety of 1901, you have negligible chance to do anything but get Bul and then sit there in 1901, and it’s ridiculously hard to get mobilized even after that. And you’re helpless to influence most of what’s going on on the board for at least the first few years. And your diplomatic options are incredibly limited. It seems like, absent Italian intervention, AR is more likely to occur and more likely to succeed than any other Balkan permutation. Long term prospects for AT are quite poor, and while RT long term looks good, it looks a lot better for R than for T. But I could totally be wrong, and I’m certainly not looking what amounts to a gift horse in the mouth – I’m glad we’ve got someone on the team who wants to take the position. Now only if we can take care of Italy. Call me elitist, but I think the stronger Powers should be assigned to the more experienced players. I spent some time this morning looking for an article I read somewhere that contained analysis (probably written by Sharp) on the breakdown of the first few hundred recorded postal games. I wish I had a cite, but for now it’s just from memory… Italy wins far fewer games than any other Power, and I believe the top performers were FRG. I think it would make sense for us to maximize our gains by giving the positions with the most potential to gain points for our team to those players with the greatest ability to make the most of that potential. Of course, I rate among the least experienced of our team, so if that lands me in Italy, so be it. As it stands I’m not at all opposed to taking Austria, which I take it is somewhat unpopular. And I hope I don’t make a fool of myself playing it. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/16 "2002-11-06T02:40:56Z")
> [@](#): > > while RT long term looks good Darn tootin’ I’m good for the long term. You young whippersnappers don’t even know what a long term is! 😉 If Russia and Turkey bump fleets in the Black Sea in 1901, then either it’s a failure of diplomacy, or they’re double-crossing each other. Most games I’ve been in, neither has tried to occupy the Black Sea in 1901. Kinda like England and France with the English Channel - “we could waste a lot of time bumping heads here, and watch everyone else get somewhere while we don’t, or we could agree that this is a neutral body of water, and make some serious headway against everyone else.” Geez, I’m the only one who put England in his top 3? England’s _fabulous_ - when you get a good roll going with those fleets, you’re hard to stop. What are **ppg** ’s preferences? ---
**Author:** ![Abe\_Babe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Abe\_Babe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe_Babe)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/17 "2002-11-06T04:52:44Z")
I like England too. The fleets let you work your little white bum into most theaters. The only power it’s impossible for you to affect in the first few years is Turkey. If there’s a Russia/Turkey, England is likely to be a large part of the Mediterranean stopping force. Regarding how powers are assigned, there are a few possible alternatives. Are we primarily interested in team scores? If so, an experienced player might be able to finish 4th with Germany, for instance, rather than 7th. I am thinking along the lines of the people least likely to make a fatal blunder playing the countries where a fatal blunder would be. . . well. . . fatal. I’ll email McGee about his preferences. ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/18 "2002-11-06T06:10:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Abe Babe \* > Are we primarily interested in team scores? If so, an experienced player might be able to finish 4th with Germany, for instance, rather than 7th. I think this depends somewhat on how the scoring works. Is it more favorable, for instance, to finish 2nd behind a solo than to partake of a 4-way draw? From what little I could understand of the scoring rules, it seems that holding centers is important, but so is surviving, and that the occurrence of a solo changed the scoring somehow. In the first round we shouldn’t have to worry about that (only played to 1908 IIRC, which makes a solo pretty difficult), but it might come up in the later rounds, which we are all sure to be participating in. By the way, I should have provided these links in the OP: [WorldMasters Diplomacy 2002 main page](http://www.cat23.com/wm02/). [The scoring page](http://www.cat23.com/wm02/?rule=SCORING). [the teams page](http://www.cat23.com/wm02/viewtms.aspx) (We’re registered under “Fightning Ignorance,” and the list is in alphabetical order, finally.) [Diplomacy official rules](http://www.hasbro.com/instruct/Diplomacy.PDF) (PDF) [The Diplomatic Pouch](http://www.diplom.org), a site with a lot of useful stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/19 "2002-11-06T07:11:29Z")
Sorry for the hold up, Dave just emailed me, I had tried to post my prefs in the old thread but the gerbils ate it, and then I forgot to get back to it the following day. Anyways, I wanted to get a team opinion here. I’ve only played 2 full games, and both of them I played France. I like France, but I’d like to play a different country sometime. However, it might not be the wisest choice to do that now. Also, still being somewhat green, I don’t want to get us killed by taking Austria or Germany. Do you guys have advice on this? Should I stick with what I know and do France again, or if there’s preference conflict, or some other reason why it’d work out, which other country would be a good place to play from? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323/20 "2002-11-06T07:59:21Z")
McGee has said he dosen’t care, I am wrestling about weather it would be better to give him Italy and wish him luck or give him France or Russia and take Italy myself. Italy can win, no doubt, like Turkey it’s not as hard as most people think. The key is to make a solid alliance with Austria _and keep it_. If Austria and Italy go at it, they both lose. Quickly. I can play any power, I throw the floor open for advice. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomacy-sdmbs-entry-in-the-worldmasters-2002-tourney/135323.md?page=2)