# Diplomatic immunity of US citizens in US **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 26, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366 "2005-03-26T16:26:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/1 "2005-03-26T16:26:04Z")
I came across mention of [this](http://www.christorchaos.com/) questionable plan today: > [@](#): > > Attorney James Bendell, who is well known to traditional Catholics, is promoting a last-minute plan … to appoint Mrs. Schiavo as a member of the staff of the Vatican Embassy in Washington, D.C. This would provide her with diplomatic immunity and would require the President of the United States of America to act under international law to save her life. Leaving aside the wisdom or lack thereof for the papal nuncio to take this action, would it hold water legally? To what extent are diplomatic personnel subject to the US judicial system? Is the answer usually, “not at all,” regardless of the situation? Do American citizens have the same immunity if they are part of the staff? I know that many smaller consulates are simply, say, a Mongolian-born American businessman doing the job part time out of his business. Would such a person have diplomatic immunity? What are the specific obligations of POTUS that the plan above is referring to? ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/2 "2005-03-26T16:55:41Z")
IANAL, but appointing her diplomatic immunity wouldn’t make a difference as far as I can tell. Her spouse would still be legally able to make medical decisions on her behalf. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/3 "2005-03-26T17:10:54Z")
Diplomatic staff do not have diplomatic immunity, at least according to the [State Department](http://www.state.gov/m/ds/immunities/c9127.htm). There is no immunity at all for Consuls or their staff. In order for a US citezen to become a diplomat inside the US, they would first have to renounce their US citizenship, get foreign citizenship, have their new country’s government apply for diplomatic accreditation and then get approval from the State Department. The specific obligations are (as far as I can tell) covered by Article 29 of [Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations](http://www.un.org/law/ilc/texts/diplomat.htm) > [@](#): > > The person of a diplomatic agent shall be inviolable. He shall not be liable to any form of arrest or detention. The receiving State shall treat him with due respect and shall take all appropriate steps to prevent any attack on his person, freedom or dignity. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/4 "2005-03-26T20:16:13Z")
Sounds like the guy referred to in the OP must have been watching a rerun of “The Fugitive” when Dr. Richard Kimble hid out in a foreign embassy to avoid capture by Lt. Gerard. The plan fell apart when the ambassador died, but Dr. Kimble managed to make his escape anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Meister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Der\_Meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Meister)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/5 "2005-03-27T02:58:12Z")
How does diplomatic immunity work? If someone with such a status were to walk up to a police officer and shoot him in plain view would he be arrested? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/6 "2005-03-27T03:03:23Z")
> [@Der Meister](#): > > How does diplomatic immunity work? If someone with such a status were to walk up to a police officer and shoot him in plain view would he be arrested? His home nation would probably waive the diplomatic immunity for him, but if not he would be deported. Nations generally waive the immunity in these cases for international harmony. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/7 "2005-03-27T03:11:13Z")
> [@Der Meister](#): > > How does diplomatic immunity work? If someone with such a status were to walk up to a police officer and shoot him in plain view would he be arrested? No. He could not be arrested. However, as murder would surely be against the law in the natiion he lived, he could be tried there. In such an extreme case, a diplomat almost surely wouldn’t get away with it. One way or another, this diplomat would be screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/8 "2005-03-27T03:48:04Z")
In general, it wouldn’t be possible to try a diplomat in his home country for a crime committed in another country, since it wouldn’t be their jurisdiction. What’s more likely is that the diplomat’s country would waive immunity, the country where the crime was committed would try and convict (or accept a plea bargain from) the diplomat, and then there would be an agreement that the diplomat would be allowed to serve the sentence in his home country’s prisons. There’s one famous example where a diplomat in the U.S. was convicted of a crime. The second-ranking person at the Ukranian embassy in Washington was speeding and driving drunk when he was involved in a crash that killed someone. The U.S. persuaded the Ukraine to waive immunity for him. He was convicted and sentenced. I’m not sure where he’s serving time. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/9 "2005-03-27T04:05:50Z")
> [@](#): > > According to the official U.S. Department of State web site, “The purpose of these privileges and immunities is **not to benefit individuals but to ensure the efficient and effective performance of their official missions on behalf of their governments**. Most of these privileges and immunities are not absolute…” Law enforcement can pursue diplomats who break the law, with the perpetrators usually deported to their home country for prosecution. > > As this transcript from a conference speech delivered by Mr. Clay Hays, a member of the State Department makes clear, **the point of diplomatic immunity is expediency, not privilege** : “The underlying concept is that foreign representatives can carry out their duties effectively only if they are accorded a certain degree of insulation from the application of standard law enforcement practices of the host country.” Source: [http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20020116.html](http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20020116.html) ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/10 "2005-03-27T04:09:19Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > In general, it wouldn’t be possible to try a diplomat in his home country for a crime committed in another country, since it wouldn’t be their jurisdiction. What’s more likely is that the diplomat’s country would waive immunity, the country where the crime was committed would try and convict (or accept a plea bargain from) the diplomat, and then there would be an agreement that the diplomat would be allowed to serve the sentence in his home country’s prisons. > > There’s one famous example where a diplomat in the U.S. was convicted of a crime. The second-ranking person at the Ukranian embassy in Washington was speeding and driving drunk when he was involved in a crash that killed someone. The U.S. persuaded the Ukraine to waive immunity for him. He was convicted and sentenced. I’m not sure where he’s serving time. But how common is this? Is the Ukraine typical? ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/11 "2005-03-27T04:35:00Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Source: [Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos](http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20020116.html) Right, it’s just to prevent diplomats from being harrassed as a means of stalling any work their doing. Extreme hypothetical: Like to keep the US diplomat to Iran from getting a parking ticket every three minutes when he’s trying to swing by some nuclear facility. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/12 "2005-03-27T05:54:41Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Right, it’s just to prevent diplomats from being harrassed as a means of stalling any work their doing. Extreme hypothetical: Like to keep the US diplomat to Iran from getting a parking ticket every three minutes when he’s trying to swing by some nuclear facility. I see you missed the bolded parts of the post. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/13 "2005-03-27T11:24:01Z")
rfgdxm writes: \> But how common is this? Is the Ukraine typical? Common? Just how common could it be? Do you think that diplomats are constantly going around shooting people and saying, “Hey, you can’t arrest me. I have diplomatic immunity.” Diplomats are chosen on the basis of stability. If you want to advance in a diplomatic career, you can’t show any “non-diplomatic behavior.” Yes, there are also some people in ambassadorial positions who got there by making large campaign contributions, but these people tend to be successful businessmen who aren’t exactly young, wild, devil-may-care types either. There are very few cases of diplomats involved in serious crimes. There are a fair amount who take advantage of diplomatic status to illegally park, but that’s about it. Most crimes would just get a diplomat deported immediately. I understand that it took some persuasion to get the Ukraine to waive immunity for this diplomat. ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/14 "2005-03-27T13:28:55Z")
The drunk-drivin’ diplomat was one Georgi Makharadze, a diplomat from Georgia, not Ukraine. He struck and killed a 16-year-old girl. Georgia waived his diplomatic immunity, and he was charged, tried, and convicted in a U.S. court. After serving his sentence (three years), he was sent home. That’s the only situation I can remember in recent years where a diplomat was accused of a serious crime that wasn’t espionage. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/15 "2005-03-27T14:32:20Z")
Yvonne Fletcher was killed by shots fired from inside the Libyan embassy in England in 1984. The embassy staff was deported but no charges were filed due to diplomatic immunity. > **[Murder of Yvonne Fletcher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvonne_Fletcher)** > > The murder of Yvonne Fletcher, a Metropolitan Police officer, occurred on 17 April 1984, when she was fatally wounded by a shot fired from the Libyan embassy on St James's Square, London, by an unknown gunman. Fletcher had been deployed to monitor a demonstration against the Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, and died shortly afterwards. Her death resulted in an eleven-day siege of the embassy, at the end of which those inside were expelled from the country and the United Kingdom severed diplomat... ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/16 "2005-03-27T14:53:06Z")
If a diplomat was indeed to commit a murder, could the host country choose to consider it an act of war? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/17 "2005-03-27T14:55:42Z")
Of course it works both ways. The Liberians got away with murder, but our guys are protected from Liberian justice too. In the long run it pays off. My ex-F-I-L was the Ambassador to the US from Panama. He got a parking ticket somewhere in the wilds of New Jersey. He sent it back to the local police with a nice note. When he went back to the town (a girlfriend was involved), the ‘incident’ was on the front page of the local weekly paper. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/18 "2005-03-27T16:39:25Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > … if not he would be deported. A nitpick but diplomats aren’t deported, they become _persona non grata_. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/19 "2005-03-27T17:12:30Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > rfgdxm writes: > > \> But how common is this? Is the Ukraine typical? > > Common? Just how common could it be? Do you think that diplomats are constantly going around shooting people and saying, “Hey, you can’t arrest me. I have diplomatic immunity.” Diplomats are chosen on the basis of stability. If you want to advance in a diplomatic career, you can’t show any “non-diplomatic behavior.” Yes, there are also some people in ambassadorial positions who got there by making large campaign contributions, but these people tend to be successful businessmen who aren’t exactly young, wild, devil-may-care types either. There are very few cases of diplomats involved in serious crimes. There are a fair amount who take advantage of diplomatic status to illegally park, but that’s about it. Most crimes would just get a diplomat deported immediately. I understand that it took some persuasion to get the Ukraine to waive immunity for this diplomat. What I meant by “common” was how often does a country waive immunity for one of their own diplomats, rather than deal with them back in the home country? And, you are wrong about all people with diplomatic immunity being chosen for stability. I once knew a very young woman who was the daughter of ambassador to the US from an African nation who said she had diplomatic immunity. I respond with “Hmm…I’d better be careful around you then, as you could kill me on the spot and get away with it.” 😉 While I saw nothing about her that was unstable, she wasn’t “chosen”. She just had diplomatic status because of her parentage. Now I presume if her daddy thought she had homicidal tendencies he’d have sent her back to the home country to avoid any possible diplomatic problems. However, having diplomatic immunity doesn’t necessarily mean the person isn’t a young, wild-eyed, devil-may-care type. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366/20 "2005-03-27T17:18:52Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > My ex-F-I-L was the Ambassador to the US from Panama. He got a parking ticket somewhere in the wilds of New Jersey. He sent it back to the local police with a nice note. When he went back to the town (a girlfriend was involved), the ‘incident’ was on the front page of the local weekly paper. Must have been a small town. And, was the headline on the sort “Stupid cop issues parking ticket to car with diplomat plates”? He was just wasting taxpayer money doing so. The State Department just ain’t gonna escalate a matter of a parking ticket to an “incident” worthy of their atention. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/diplomatic-immunity-of-us-citizens-in-us/296366.md?page=2)